Letter from Jess Meyers

(Ray Audette) wrote in message . com...
" Not only in research, but also in the everyday world of politics and
economics, we would all be better off if more people realized that simple
nonlinear systems do not nececessarily posses simple dynamical properties."
Biologist Robert Mays from his "messianic" paper in Nature (
1976) "The Mathmatical Intuition"

Thus greenhouse warming may produce another ice age rather than a warmer
climate ( according to many scientists the more likely senario) and women
who consume more calories weigh less than women who practice calorie
reduction (according to the 125,000 women studied by Harvard).

No **** Sherlock, since only fat women with bad genetic metabolism
jump into these "calorie reduction" programs. "There are lies, damn
lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain. As with most complex systems:
It's usually a combination of factors that yields the result i.e.
(not just one root cause.) Some pilot's are genetically predisposed
to be "widebodies." But then pushing Big-Mac-Attacks in their faces
every five miles down the highway with a billboard or a towering
lighted sign can't help either. Corporate America lying to them by
saying the food is now x percent more heathy and hoping they won't see
the ten year extention on this promise is in my opinion: criminal.

pacplyer

(Ray Audette) wrote in message . com...
" Not only in research, but also in the everyday world of politics and
economics, we would all be better off if more people realized that simple
nonlinear systems do not nececessarily posses simple dynamical properties."
Biologist Robert Mays from his "messianic" paper in Nature (
1976) "The Mathmatical Intuition"

Thus greenhouse warming may produce another ice age rather than a warmer
climate snip


Headed for an Ice Age? Good! We need one since the Ross Ice Shelf is
getting paper thin and world's oceans are rising. The last time we
listened to these enviromental nuts who try to micromanage such
complex systems as the global environment, we polluted all our
drinking water with their cure-all MTBE. This cleaner-burning
super-long molecule just never breaks down in the environment, so it's
going to be wrapping itself around your chromosomes for the rest of
your life; and we don't know what kind of cancer or other problems
that's going to produce. Environmental fixes are just like Michael
Jackson's nose surgeries: if he would have just left it alone, it
would still be there. Anyone who falls for these over-simplified
diets and magic environmental bullets deserves to loose face (sorry
for the bad pun.) I enjoyed Stealth Pilot's logical insights on the
Kreb's cycle, however. Therein lies the key to maintaining your
medical.

The environment has been recovering itself from vast volcanic and
asteroid impacts for millions of years (drastic global temperature
events.) I say we slash the budget for environmental studies and
divert those funds into efforts of population control. You just can't
keep reproducing young lads who look up into the beatiful blue sky and
the more accessible ribbon of highway, and expect all of them to be
eco-nuts who are content just to recycle garbage and look out the
window at the sky their grandfathers used to fly magnificent machines
in. The very act of sitting in those houses has deforested much of
this earth I have flown over in my twenty-year career thus far. Ever
see what happens to bacteria in a closed bottle? Ever heard of Easter
Island?

Green weenies are a simple-minded lot IMHO. They try to hawk bandaids
and snake oil to a world that needs a fierce dose of reality about the
dire consequences of unchecked reproduction. Re-reading I see that
was Ray's point. So I agree with his MacDucks "fine print" atrocity
conclusion; just not his statistics.

Pac "combustible engine" plyer

Barnyard BOb - wrote
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My observations over time...


1. IF YOU EAT MORE THAN YOU BURN....

YOU WEAR IT.


2. Exercise is great for cardiovascular improvement,
but one can easily eat more than can be exercised away.


3. My doctor sez....

Put whatever you desire on your plate,
then slide half of it off and you will lose weight.



Barnyard BOb -

Stunning. Impossible, but Stunning.

pac

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

I never said it was the only straw, but I believe it is the largest
factor by far.

Faith without "a shred of evidence" is wonderful.

If anyone can show me a shred of evidence that humans
have made some dramatic change in genetic composition in the last 3-4
decads, I'll admit that I'm wrong.

I never asserted that.

The change is simple. You first have to simply admit that you are fat
because of what YOU are doing or not doing. Then decide you are going
to eat less and exercise more. Then go out and do it! Walk, ride bike,
whatever. If you spend all of your energy looking for a scapegoat, then
you'll stay fat and out of shape. Looking for an excuse simply doesn't
burn many calories! :-)

Life is rarely simple.

My dad quite smoking overnight before patches were available. I think
looking for bandaid solutions for every problem simply encourages more
people to wait around for the bandaid rather than making the hard
choices and investing some work.

No sense using the saw. Just beat it off with the hammer. If it was good
enough fer dad, it's good enough fer me.

I think I know what you mean. You mean to say that eating less and
exercising is hard work and takes a lot of will power. I agree.

Nope. I think you said that.

You are also saying that we should coddle folks and make it easy for them
rather than telling them to get off their butts and work a little. I
disagree.

That may be one way to phrase it. I would liken it to the choice a surgeon
makes when he chooses to use anaesthetic to perform an operation, rather
than just saw the leg off. Yeah, mebbe there are those who can grit their
teeth and take it. Does that make them better than those who would rather
forego the pain? I don't think so. But who cares anyway? The objective is to
get the operation performed successfully, not to sit back in self-righteous
indignation and say, "I did it, so you have to do it the same way". That's
B.S. All this crap of pointing fingers, blaming people, telling them they're
wimps unless they can do it by themselves, has no place outside of Marine
boot camp. It may make you feel good to do it, but it doesn't solve the
problem.

I have a very hard time turning down a cookie or donut. I don't always
feel like stopping at the gym after work or hopping on the bike for a
two hour ride. However, I will tell you that it works.

Nobody is arguing the physical facts of weight loss. What I am saying is
that we need to develop effective solutions so that everyone who wants to
lose weight can do it. You can tell me a hundred times that it works - that
doesn't change the fact that your way is not working for many people. Go
ahead, puff out your chest, feel good that you can hit the gym or the
bicycle, but that doesn't solve the epidemic, my friend.

I'd like to add that I value your opinions on several other subjects. I just
think you're not really seeing the problem on this one.

Ciao,
Rich S

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Bill Daniels wrote:


"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message
...


Nope, simply observation over time, knowing from labor statistics the
kinds of jobs we have now compared to 30 or 40 years ago. We have

fewer

farm, manufacturing, heavy labor, etc., jobs and more desk jobs,

service

jobs, etc. Also, I've yet to see any evidence that humans have evolved
genetically in a dramatic way in such a short period of time.

Matt

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +

My observations over time...


1. IF YOU EAT MORE THAN YOU BURN....

YOU WEAR IT.


2. Exercise is great for cardiovascular improvement,
but one can easily eat more than can be exercised away.


3. My doctor sez....

Put whatever you desire on your plate,
then slide half of it off and you will lose weight.



Barnyard BOb -



My doctor said that whatever part of the body gets used the most gets

the

biggest. If you sit at a computer all day, your butt gets big.

Do your eyes get bit also? :-)


Matt



40 years ago the captain of my ship hit on a solution to the expanding
waistlines of some of the crew.

He ordered the hatches to the mess decks dogged and locked leaving only the
18" diameter scuttle holes. If you could skinny through the holes, you
could eat. If not, you could report to the ships doctor for a special diet
and exercise. Of course, you could also starve.

One of my Chief Petty Officers was heard to say after consulting a chart of
height vs. desired weight, "I am NOT too heavy, I'm just 6 inches too
short - it's height discrimination."

Unfortunately, if that was done today, the Captain would be brought up
on charges. :-(


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

I was talking about the GENERAL obesity problem in the US, not any
particular person. Sure, there are all sorts of medical conditions that
can cause weight gain or loss. I never said otherwise.

Medical conditions? I never said that skinny people were sick.
However, sometimes watching them gorge themselves does make *me* sick
with envy.

Its generally related to metabolism - the rate at which we burn all
those calories. I can't cite any medical reference for this, but I do
know that when I fast (i.e.-quit eating), I lose weight slower than if
I just cut back. With a low carb diet, I can actually gorge myself on
legal foods and lose weight faster than fasting.

The point I'm trying to make is that somehow my system shifts gears
when it comes to metabolism. If I go hungry, my metabolism slows way
down. Pig out and it speeds up. In these naturally skinny people, I
think that it's in high gear pretty much all of the time.

Dennis.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

Rich S. wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

I never said it was the only straw, but I believe it is the largest
factor by far.


Faith without "a shred of evidence" is wonderful.

There's lots of evidence. Do a little research. I'm not going to do it
for you.



If anyone can show me a shred of evidence that humans

have made some dramatic change in genetic composition in the last 3-4
decads, I'll admit that I'm wrong.


I never asserted that.

I don't recall who asserted that genetics was behind obesity, but
someone in this thread did or at least made a strong insinuation to that
end.


The change is simple. You first have to simply admit that you are fat
because of what YOU are doing or not doing. Then decide you are going
to eat less and exercise more. Then go out and do it! Walk, ride bike,
whatever. If you spend all of your energy looking for a scapegoat, then
you'll stay fat and out of shape. Looking for an excuse simply doesn't
burn many calories! :-)


Life is rarely simple.

Nor easy. Controlling one's weight is hard work. You either do it in a
job that requires hard work (I had no weight control issues when I
worked as a logger) or you work hard off the job exercising.


My dad quite smoking overnight before patches were available. I think
looking for bandaid solutions for every problem simply encourages more
people to wait around for the bandaid rather than making the hard
choices and investing some work.


No sense using the saw. Just beat it off with the hammer. If it was good
enough fer dad, it's good enough fer me.

Sorry, but using will power is the right tool for the job. Using
bandaid approaches is the wrong tool.


I think I know what you mean. You mean to say that eating less and
exercising is hard work and takes a lot of will power. I agree.


Nope. I think you said that.

Probably, as you obviously aren't smart enough to say something that
insightful.


You are also saying that we should coddle folks and make it easy for them
rather than telling them to get off their butts and work a little. I
disagree.


That may be one way to phrase it. I would liken it to the choice a surgeon
makes when he chooses to use anaesthetic to perform an operation, rather
than just saw the leg off. Yeah, mebbe there are those who can grit their
teeth and take it. Does that make them better than those who would rather
forego the pain? I don't think so. But who cares anyway? The objective is to
get the operation performed successfully, not to sit back in self-righteous
indignation and say, "I did it, so you have to do it the same way". That's
B.S. All this crap of pointing fingers, blaming people, telling them they're
wimps unless they can do it by themselves, has no place outside of Marine
boot camp. It may make you feel good to do it, but it doesn't solve the
problem.

Nice try, but not even close to being a good analogy. Surgery isn't a
lifestyle issue. Obesity, for most people, is a lifestyle issue. A
better analogy is financial responsbility. The bandaid that many want
to apply is either bankruptcy or debt consolidation loans. These are
like liposuction, stomach stapling, etc., with respect to weight loss.
The trouble is, they don't address the underlying issues. Financially,
the issue is that people spend more than they make and don't know how to
budget and live within their means. Consolidating their debt without
addressing the underlying spending habits only gives them more headroom
to get into even deeper trouble. You have to address the
budget/spending issues first and then look at aids such as debt
consolidation loans. Same with weight. You need to address the
lifestyle habits.



I have a very hard time turning down a cookie or donut. I don't always
feel like stopping at the gym after work or hopping on the bike for a
two hour ride. However, I will tell you that it works.


Nobody is arguing the physical facts of weight loss. What I am saying is
that we need to develop effective solutions so that everyone who wants to
lose weight can do it. You can tell me a hundred times that it works - that
doesn't change the fact that your way is not working for many people. Go
ahead, puff out your chest, feel good that you can hit the gym or the
bicycle, but that doesn't solve the epidemic, my friend.

I disagree. 20 years of society telling people that nothing is their
fault and they are victims of McDonald's, Nabsico, or whoever, is what
isn't working.


I'd like to add that I value your opinions on several other subjects. I just
think you're not really seeing the problem on this one.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the coddling and
band-aid solutions HAVE been tried for at least a generation now and
THEY are what have been shown to not work. I think the Dr. Phil
approach should now be given a couple of decades of trial.


Matt

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:18:14 -0400, Matt Whiting
wrote:

Rich S. wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
news:ccramb01ome@enews4.

I never said it was the only straw, but I believe it is the largest
factor by far. If anyone can show me a shred of evidence that humans
have made some dramatic change in genetic composition in the last 3-4
decads, I'll admit that I'm wrong.


Matt, I don't think it has happened in the last 3-4 decades. I don't
think it is a change in genetic composition but a survival of that
genetic composition in the last 300 years.

When food is scarce, those who's body can utilize whatever food is
available will survive. In the livestock industry, such an animal is
known as an easy keeper. It is a trait of some species and some
breeds.

Example: Several studies of Navajo, Pima and Apache Native Americans
have revealed between 45 and 74 percent have type 2 diabetes. A
condition brought on by obesity. The prevalence for obesity was a
result of culling those ancestors who were not "easy keepers" in
difficult times.

Bottom line is the abundance of food for those with "easy keeper"
genetic composition.

wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:


I was talking about the GENERAL obesity problem in the US, not any
particular person. Sure, there are all sorts of medical conditions that
can cause weight gain or loss. I never said otherwise.


Medical conditions? I never said that skinny people were sick.
However, sometimes watching them gorge themselves does make *me* sick
with envy.

Its generally related to metabolism - the rate at which we burn all
those calories. I can't cite any medical reference for this, but I do
know that when I fast (i.e.-quit eating), I lose weight slower than if
I just cut back. With a low carb diet, I can actually gorge myself on
legal foods and lose weight faster than fasting.

That is why you shouldn't quit eating, just reduce portion sizes.


The point I'm trying to make is that somehow my system shifts gears
when it comes to metabolism. If I go hungry, my metabolism slows way
down. Pig out and it speeds up. In these naturally skinny people, I
think that it's in high gear pretty much all of the time.

Yes, everyone's system does that. That is why exercise is an important
component of any successful, lasting weight loss/control program.
Exercise itself greatly increases metabolism and the extra muscle mass
you create also increases your base metabolic rate so the benefits keep
on accruing even between exercise sessions. That is why any competent
trainer will recommend strength training in addition to cardio in
addition to eating less of the right foods. Cardio burns more calories
at the moment, but has little to no lasting affect. My trainer says you
will burn more calories for another hour or two after a cardio workout.
After a round with the weights, he says you will burn extra calories
for up to 24 hours! I've seen a number of other sources make this same
claim so I don't think he's blowing smoke.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote


Nor easy. Controlling one's weight is hard work. You either do it in a
job that requires hard work (I had no weight control issues when I
worked as a logger) or you work hard off the job exercising.
******************

How old were you when you were a logger, Matt? How old are you now?

Probably, as you obviously aren't smart enough to say something that
insightful.
******************

Now you are actng like you are not too old.


Obesity, for most people, is a lifestyle issue.
*****************
hummm


I think the coddling and
band-aid solutions HAVE been tried for at least a generation now and
THEY are what have been shown to not work. I think the Dr. Phil
approach should now be given a couple of decades of trial.
****************

Dr. Phil occasionally hits on the right answers, and makes good television,
but his insight and solutions are almost always overly simplistic.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 7/5/2004