Ferry flight a commercial op?

Helen wrote in
news:8ft_i.6111$VB6.5184@trnddc06:

Just call AOPA. All of our membership dollars pay those folks to sit
around reading the FAA legal interpretations. You'll be surprised at
some of the petty cases the FAA has taken on under this rule to
prosecute well meaning pilots.



Hmm, probably wouldn't be all that surprised. OK, you sold me, though it's
kind of irrelevant in my case..


OK, what about sending one of our club members up to collect an airplane
that's been at a radio shop?


Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
...

OK, what about sending one of our club members up to collect an airplane
that's been at a radio shop?


Bertie

Who is paying for the gas?

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Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate

On Nov 13, 6:54 pm, Helen wrote:

I would like to provide some clarification to your post.
The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and as
such the CFI is correct.

The question here is Would they. You are dealing with many different
FISDO's and they will all have a different interpritaion on this. I
doubt this would hold up in court. There are also many many ways to
get around this. With this being on Usnet I am sue we will read
several of the ways


I've actually had a long chat with AOPA on
this subject.

Dont believe what you hear from AOPA! I have known people who have
recieved so much bad advise over the years it makes me sad. Judging
from the responses I have heard from AOPA, you have alot of marginally
qualified people over there who are just regurging reference material
they dont understand.



I manage a light sport flight school and most of my staff
are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second class one to
ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they volunteer their
time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.


My hat is off to you for running a flight school ! We could certainly
use more people like you but you should not try to be a lawyer. I
think Paul would be blowin it if he didnt take this flight.
KFB

On Nov 13, 5:53 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
Something like ten years ago, maybe more, there was a case that involved a
skydiving club. One of the members was also a private pilot and volunteered
to fly the jump plane. He thought it a great way to build free time towards
his commercial. Since he was using the time towards another rating it was
deemed to be compensation since he'd otherwise have to pay for it and the
flights were a commercial operation.


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

this case?

If so, in that case, the pilot was in the wrong because he was flying
passengers who had paid to be there. Therefore, even though he wasn't
getting paid, a company (or in this case a skydiving club) was being
compensated for his piloting services. The fact that he was trying to
build time is irrelevant.

In the case of an already-sold plane being delivered to the buyer, the
way I see it, No one is being compensated (the pilot nor the seller)
for the flight.

On Nov 13, 5:54 pm, Helen wrote:
AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Did AOPA actually say that?

When has the FAA ever established that logging flight time is
considered "compensation"?

On Nov 13, 7:41 pm, Helen wrote:
Just call AOPA. All of our membership dollars pay those folks to sit
around reading the FAA legal interpretations. You'll be surprised at
some of the petty cases the FAA has taken on under this rule to
prosecute well meaning pilots.

Helen,
the AOPA people are probably the last resource you should recomend.
The ALPA legal services plan is probably not a good way to get
interpritations.The staff may be well meaning, but most of them lack
the qualifications and expertise to do members much good.Over the
years most of the prominent aviation attorneys have dropped out of the
plan. I would recomend most pilots just talk to their own attorneys if
they have a question.
KFB

"buttman" wrote in message
ps.com...

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

this case?


Could be.



If so, in that case, the pilot was in the wrong because he was flying
passengers who had paid to be there. Therefore, even though he wasn't
getting paid, a company (or in this case a skydiving club) was being
compensated for his piloting services. The fact that he was trying to
build time is irrelevant.


The club was compensated for skydiving instruction, not for the services of
the pilot.

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in
:

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
...

OK, what about sending one of our club members up to collect an airplane
that's been at a radio shop?


Bertie

Who is paying for the gas?


Pilot pays for nothing.

Let's break it down into two examples then.

One, he's part of a flying club, pays dues monthly, let's say he washes
airplanes and what not for flying time, and in the second example he's just
a friend of a guy who hasn't got time to schlepp his airplane to the field
where the radio shop is. He's just doing it as a favor to the owner.

I've known both of these to have happened in the distant past (with the
flying club an FAA inspector was one of the members and knew)


Bertie

buttman wrote in news:1195010837.025449.286700
@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

On Nov 13, 5:54 pm, Helen wrote:
AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Did AOPA actually say that?

When has the FAA ever established that logging flight time is
considered "compensation"?



Depends on if you're actually gettingn anything out of the flying. Like
learning something.



You're ok.



Bertie