Clouds and Class B

On 2008-06-03, Robert Moore wrote:
Bull****!! All a/c in Class B are on a "clearance" and must maintain
the route and altitude in that clearance unless an ammended clearance
is obtained.

Well, except there's the pesky language in AIM 3-2-3(e)(3):

This program is not to be interpreted as relieving pilots of their
responsibilities to see and avoid other traffic operating in basic VFR
weather conditions, to adjust their operations and flight path as necessary
to preclude serious wake encounters, to maintain appropriate terrain and
obstruction clearance or to remain in weather conditions equal to or better
than the minimums required by 14 CFR Section 91.155. Approach control should
be advised and a revised clearance or instruction obtained when compliance
with an assigned route, heading and/or altitude is likely to compromise
pilot responsibility with respect to terrain and obstruction clearance,
vortex exposure, and weather minimums.

While the pilot needs to anticipate the conditions in front of him, and be
ready to tell ATC "unable" when their instruction would send him into a
cloud bank, it's probably better for a pilot to deviate and tell ATC about
it than continue into that cloud and run the risk of losing everything.
"Houston Approach, Zodiac 55ZC, unable to maintain VFR on this heading, need
to turn to the right" would, I'd expect, get a quick response. Fly the
airplane first.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)

HARRY POTTER wrote:

Usually when they say you're cleared in the bravo, they'll remind you
to maintain VFR. If you have to change heading or climb/descend, you
just notify them of the change. When you're VFR, even in a Bravo, you
don't need ATC permission to change heading or anything like that.


You do if a heading or anything like that has been assigned by ATC.

HARRY POTTER wrote in
:

Mxsmanic wrote:

You've been cleared into Class B VFR, and you've been assigned a
heading. After a while you see that your heading will take you
through some clouds, and
you asked to be cleared on a different heading, 40 degrees to the
right. ATC
says unable and gives a plausible reason why. What do you do?

Usually when they say you're cleared in the bravo, they'll remind you
to maintain VFR. If you have to change heading or climb/descend, you
just notify them of the change. When you're VFR, even in a Bravo, you
don't need ATC permission to change heading or anything like that.


BULL ****. Complete and total BULL ****.

You don't know **** from shinola about class B operations.

Blakesy writes:

Posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages without
disclosing your true identity is a federal criminal offence:

47 U.S.C. 223: "Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can be used
to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are
transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet... without disclosing his
identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any
person...who receives the communications...shall be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

Read the entire text that you quoted, including the part about intent and a
personal target. Note also the absence of the word "true" before "identity."

HARRY POTTER writes:

Usually when they say you're cleared in the bravo, they'll remind you to
maintain VFR. If you have to change heading or climb/descend, you just
notify them of the change. When you're VFR, even in a Bravo, you don't need
ATC permission to change heading or anything like that.

But in Class B, ATC can direct you to a heading (FAR 91.123(b)), rather than
simply allow you to continue on your own. If ATC does this, and you see a
cloud, and you ask for a different heading, and ATC says "unable," what do you
do? Regulations require that you stay clear of clouds, but you're also
supposed to follow ATC instructions. And if you refuse ATC instructions for a
cloud, the cloud will soon be gone, even though your refusal will stay on
tape. If ATC ends up with a deal because you didn't obey, who gets in
trouble? What happens? There's a potential real danger to you either way,
since there might be an aircraft hiding in the clouds, and not following ATC
might put you in conflict with other traffic. There's also a legal danger,
since if you do something that the FAA considers wrong, you could get in
trouble.

I guess you could declare an emergency in order to avoid the cloud contrary to
ATC instructions, but that might get you in trouble, too.

That's what I'm wondering about.

Robert Moore writes:

Bull****!! All a/c in Class B are on a "clearance" and must maintain
the route and altitude in that clearance unless an ammended clearance
is obtained.

The clearance may not include an altitude or route for VFR flights, in which
case these are at the pilot's discretion. The clearance may also specify only
limits, not specific altitudes and routes, and within those limits, the route
and altitude remain at the VFR pilot's discretion. "Maintain VFR at or below
4500" means altitude is at the VFR pilot's discretion, as long as it's below
4500 and otherwise legal.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

HARRY POTTER writes:

Usually when they say you're cleared in the bravo, they'll remind you
to maintain VFR. If you have to change heading or climb/descend, you
just notify them of the change. When you're VFR, even in a Bravo, you
don't need ATC permission to change heading or anything like that.

But in Class B, ATC can direct you to a heading (FAR 91.123(b)),
rather than simply allow you to continue on your own. If ATC does
this, and you see a cloud, and you ask for a different heading, and
ATC says "unable," what do you do? Regulations require that you stay
clear of clouds, but you're also supposed to follow ATC instructions.
And if you refuse ATC instructions for a cloud, the cloud will soon be
gone, even though your refusal will stay on tape. If ATC ends up with
a deal because you didn't obey, who gets in trouble? What happens?
There's a potential real danger to you either way, since there might
be an aircraft hiding in the clouds, and not following ATC might put
you in conflict with other traffic. There's also a legal danger,
since if you do something that the FAA considers wrong, you could get
in trouble.

I guess you could declare an emergency in order to avoid the cloud
contrary to ATC instructions, but that might get you in trouble, too.

That's what I'm wondering about.


For the several thousand hours you claim to have "flown", Anthony, you
don't understand the FARs at all. Despite your pretenses, you don't know
**** from shinola about the real world of aviation. This is something a
real student would know. You don't. You are a complete and total fraud.

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Robert Moore writes:

Bull****!! All a/c in Class B are on a "clearance" and must maintain
the route and altitude in that clearance unless an ammended clearance
is obtained.

The clearance may not include an altitude or route for VFR flights, in
which case these are at the pilot's discretion. The clearance may
also specify only limits, not specific altitudes and routes, and
within those limits, the route and altitude remain at the VFR pilot's
discretion. "Maintain VFR at or below 4500" means altitude is at the
VFR pilot's discretion, as long as it's below 4500 and otherwise
legal.


And this comes from your vast experience flying VFR in class B airspace?

You, Anthony, have NEVER been cleared into class B airspace. Never. You
just play games and have no idea if what you are doing is correct or not.
Yet you ****ing arrogantly pretend to give out information based on your
feeble minded misunderstanding of how the system works.

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:03:35 -0500, St.Raoul attempted to confuse the
issue further by squeaking:
On 02 Jun 2008 00:35:31 GMT, gregvk wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
gregvk wrote:
Maxwell wrote:
Blakesy says...
On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:52:03 -0700, Maxwell wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip says...
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2008 16:51:22 -0700 (PDT), Tina wrote:
:
Newsgroups:


rec.aviation.piloting,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.alien.v ampire.flonk.flo
n k.fl
onk

Were you aware you posted your follow up article to all these
newsgroups? Did you intend to do that?

Do you realise there's a world outside your anus?

He'd have to pull his head out of it first to know that

Larry, I'm only ditzing around here. If you want an invasion,
you're going about it the right way.

Meow?

Posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages
without disclosing your true identity is a federal criminal offence:

Pleace to allow me to point out the inconvenient fact that teh usernets
=/= teh intarwebs. Usenet _predates_ the Web. By a decade or more.

47 U.S.C. 223: "Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can
be used to originate telecommunications or other types of
communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the
Internet... without disclosing his identity and with intent to
annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person...who receives the
communications...shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not
more than two years, or both."

Report it he
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/offices/

If you think the fbi/doj is going to take resources from its search
for OBL & Co to search for me, bring it on, k00k!

Meow!!!1!

Heh. Unless you're using an anonymous remailer (which you aren't),
you identify yourself when you login to the news server. Doesn't
matter what name appears at the top of your posts; the news server
knows exactly who you are, and that's what counts. ...So the most
they'll do is have a couple laughs and forward his whining to the
Nitwit File.

And thus they provide a valuable service to those brave boys by
lightening up thier day.

And that, my friends, is what Meow is all about.

Hear, hear!

Bertie

OMFG you're going to jail because you didn't post with your full legal
name and I'm telling on you. Neener neener neeeeeeeeeener.

You mean Bertie T. Bunyip isn't his *real* name?

No, it's really mine. Ahem.

--
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Hail Eris! mhm 29x21; TM#5; COOSN-029-06-71069; Usenet Ruiner #5
The God of Odd Statements, the Ugliest Pig****er In The Universe
Stupidity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change.
Most Hated Usenetizen of All Time #13; Lits Slut #16
Gutter Chix0r #17; BowTie's Spuriously Accused Pedo Photographer #4
AUK Psycho & Felon #21; Parrot & Zombie #2; AUK Hate Machine Cog #19
Remove all the confusion and k00ks from my posting addy to send me your
sekrit messages.
"The most useful tool for dealing with management types is, of course,
an automatic weapon."

Official Chung Demon

WINNERS! Usenet Kook Awards, March 2007
Message-ID: 31

Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle
Trainer of PorchMonkey4Life
http://www.screedbomb.info/porchie/

AUK FAQ: http://www.caballista.org/auk/faq.html

WINNERS! Usenet Kook Awards, February 2007
Message-ID: 1

"You are the GOD-DAMNED, IGNORANT LIAR here.
Now, that is not me taking the Lord's name in vain."
-- John Wentzky: Living proof of the Death of Irony, in Message-ID:


I mourned:
The Mop Jockey did most oddly state:
DUDE, YOU WIN TEH INTERNETS!!!

the oversized check is in the mail.

Alas, all I get for my trouble is a Monkey that's trained to hurl ****
under several of my nyms.

"DevMcKinHole, you also get the pleasure of sucking off my doggy and
cleaning out his butthole with your tongue." -- He's not so much a
*Porch*Monkey as a _Fire_Monkey, as in one who's on fire due to his
own tendency to mess with lighter fluid while standing beside a hot
stove. Message-ID: 77Uxh.1996$384.1135@trnddc05

Said I:
You, Monkey-man, are quite possibly the only usenetter in existence
who does not and cannot own Hatter.

"[...] What's the matter fagboi, am I beating your as$ so badly that
you're no seeking an alliance with the diaperboi?...YOu really don't
know how dumb you are, do ya?" -- I guess I don't, Monkey.
Message-ID: gHVIh.1760$Bi2.1639@trnddc01

"Ok, but I am not stalking Teh Mop Jockey, I seem to be building a
relationship with him. Remember, I am a Christian so the secular rules
do not apply to me. I strive to be amoral, which I think applies to this
situation. Keep this in mind, please. Since I am currently mentally ill
and since I can not nominate, that is what I am doing at this time." --
Olympiada: Teh amoral "Christian", in Message-ID:


"You're like some kind of rabid attack-gerbil." -- Lionel Lauer to Joxer
in MID:

"I say you are out of your ****ing mind." -- Ying Guo, posting as
"SameAsB4" , tells PorchMonkey4Life, posting
as the same nick but a slightly different morph, the score, in MID:


"in the holy spirit i know you would satisfy every single person in a
room if you were the only person present." -- ~tanya, to Crazy Andy II,
in MID: . com

If you never read anything else in any of my sigs, read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
http://borealin.livejournal.com/15104.html
Or watch it he
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs
Then, if you manage to read/watch all that, try this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf
And Molly Ivins had a few choice words to say about it, weeks befo
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092906B.shtml
Here's Chris Floyd: Fatal Vision: The Deeper Evil Behind the Detainee
Bill: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100206A.shtml

"Q: What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A: George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War." -- Anon.

Thread where outing begins: http://tinyurl.com/hojf8
George Pickett Memorial Trophy, Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart,
and the Order of the Holey Sockpuppet winner on
outing personal contact info in x-poasted subject lines:
"Plenty of people post under their real names and do not attempt to hide
their contact info. You are scared of being 'outed' because you are a
pathological abuser of usenet, and people rightly despise you for it.
You're afraid of being reported to the authorities or, better, visited
by a couple of guys with baseball bats. Other people don't have this
obsessive fear. Ward Hardman himself has posted plenty of personal
information - nothing that anyone else added was hidden in any way.
You're so ****ing scared you've built up this whole sick mythology about
different categories of bad dudes who 'out' scum like you.

"Meanwhile you are the ugliest pig****er in the universe. You are the
coward without ethics. You call me a 'newbie' - ha! what an asshole you
are. Those who want to remain anonymous do so. There is absolutely no
way you could identify me, not unless you had the sort of subpoena power
that only gets turned on for big-time terrorists. That's because I chose
to be anonymous. Some people don't. Only really stupid dicks like you
choose the sort of semi-anonymity which leaves you in constant fear.

"What a dickless wonder you are 'Snarky' you fat asshole."
-- in MID: . com

"I am the only one who has outer filthed Ward" -- James C. "Crackhead"
Cracked voluntarily self-immolates, in MID:


"When I told Abbie Hoffman that he was the first one who made me laugh
since Lenny Bruce died, Hoffman said, "Really? He was my god." The
combination of satirical irreverence and sense of justice that Bruce and
Hoffman shared was the real spirit behind the Yippies--a term I coined
to describe a phenomenon that already existed: an organic coalition of
stoned hippies and political activists who engaged in such actions as
throwing money on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, then
explaining to reporters the meaning of that symbolism. Folksinger Phil
Ochs summed it up: "A demonstration should turn you on, not turn you
off." So when journalists link the Yippies with misleading bedfellows,
at best it's careless shorthand; at worst it's deliberate demonization.
Osama bin Laden wanted an aircraft to crash into the Pentagon. Abbie
Hoffman merely wanted to levitate it." -- Paul Krassner,
http://tinyurl.com/ehu3v

To Whom It May Concern: Michael J. Cranston attorney kook is a dog****er

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:29:39 +0000, Bertie the Bunyip attempted to
confuse the issue further by squeaking:
"Maxwell" wrote:


Nope..

Y'know, I was wondering what problem you were seeing, until I realised
that the False Max is apparently not x-poasting at all, or at least not
to AUK, unlike his other self. I think that sort of impertinence --
aggressive frogging and cutting the newsgroups line -- deserves
some...attention, that of the, ahem, *feline* variety, IYKWIM(AITYD).

--
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Hail Eris! mhm 29x21; TM#5; COOSN-029-06-71069; Usenet Ruiner #5
The God of Odd Statements, the Ugliest Pig****er In The Universe
Stupidity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change.
Most Hated Usenetizen of All Time #13; Lits Slut #16
Gutter Chix0r #17; BowTie's Spuriously Accused Pedo Photographer #4
AUK Psycho & Felon #21; Parrot & Zombie #2; AUK Hate Machine Cog #19
Remove all the confusion and k00ks from my posting addy to send me your
sekrit messages.
"The most useful tool for dealing with management types is, of course,
an automatic weapon."

Official Chung Demon

WINNERS! Usenet Kook Awards, March 2007
Message-ID: 31

Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle
Trainer of PorchMonkey4Life
http://www.screedbomb.info/porchie/

AUK FAQ: http://www.caballista.org/auk/faq.html

WINNERS! Usenet Kook Awards, February 2007
Message-ID: 1

"You are the GOD-DAMNED, IGNORANT LIAR here.
Now, that is not me taking the Lord's name in vain."
-- John Wentzky: Living proof of the Death of Irony, in Message-ID:


I mourned:
The Mop Jockey did most oddly state:
DUDE, YOU WIN TEH INTERNETS!!!

the oversized check is in the mail.

Alas, all I get for my trouble is a Monkey that's trained to hurl ****
under several of my nyms.

"DevMcKinHole, you also get the pleasure of sucking off my doggy and
cleaning out his butthole with your tongue." -- He's not so much a
*Porch*Monkey as a _Fire_Monkey, as in one who's on fire due to his
own tendency to mess with lighter fluid while standing beside a hot
stove. Message-ID: 77Uxh.1996$384.1135@trnddc05

Said I:
You, Monkey-man, are quite possibly the only usenetter in existence
who does not and cannot own Hatter.

"[...] What's the matter fagboi, am I beating your as$ so badly that
you're no seeking an alliance with the diaperboi?...YOu really don't
know how dumb you are, do ya?" -- I guess I don't, Monkey.
Message-ID: gHVIh.1760$Bi2.1639@trnddc01

"Ok, but I am not stalking Teh Mop Jockey, I seem to be building a
relationship with him. Remember, I am a Christian so the secular rules
do not apply to me. I strive to be amoral, which I think applies to this
situation. Keep this in mind, please. Since I am currently mentally ill
and since I can not nominate, that is what I am doing at this time." --
Olympiada: Teh amoral "Christian", in Message-ID:


"You're like some kind of rabid attack-gerbil." -- Lionel Lauer to Joxer
in MID:

"I say you are out of your ****ing mind." -- Ying Guo, posting as
"SameAsB4" , tells PorchMonkey4Life, posting
as the same nick but a slightly different morph, the score, in MID:


"in the holy spirit i know you would satisfy every single person in a
room if you were the only person present." -- ~tanya, to Crazy Andy II,
in MID: . com

If you never read anything else in any of my sigs, read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
http://borealin.livejournal.com/15104.html
Or watch it he
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs
Then, if you manage to read/watch all that, try this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf
And Molly Ivins had a few choice words to say about it, weeks befo
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092906B.shtml
Here's Chris Floyd: Fatal Vision: The Deeper Evil Behind the Detainee
Bill: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100206A.shtml

"Q: What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A: George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War." -- Anon.

Thread where outing begins: http://tinyurl.com/hojf8
George Pickett Memorial Trophy, Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart,
and the Order of the Holey Sockpuppet winner on
outing personal contact info in x-poasted subject lines:
"Plenty of people post under their real names and do not attempt to hide
their contact info. You are scared of being 'outed' because you are a
pathological abuser of usenet, and people rightly despise you for it.
You're afraid of being reported to the authorities or, better, visited
by a couple of guys with baseball bats. Other people don't have this
obsessive fear. Ward Hardman himself has posted plenty of personal
information - nothing that anyone else added was hidden in any way.
You're so ****ing scared you've built up this whole sick mythology about
different categories of bad dudes who 'out' scum like you.

"Meanwhile you are the ugliest pig****er in the universe. You are the
coward without ethics. You call me a 'newbie' - ha! what an asshole you
are. Those who want to remain anonymous do so. There is absolutely no
way you could identify me, not unless you had the sort of subpoena power
that only gets turned on for big-time terrorists. That's because I chose
to be anonymous. Some people don't. Only really stupid dicks like you
choose the sort of semi-anonymity which leaves you in constant fear.

"What a dickless wonder you are 'Snarky' you fat asshole."
-- in MID: . com

"I am the only one who has outer filthed Ward" -- James C. "Crackhead"
Cracked voluntarily self-immolates, in MID:


"When I told Abbie Hoffman that he was the first one who made me laugh
since Lenny Bruce died, Hoffman said, "Really? He was my god." The
combination of satirical irreverence and sense of justice that Bruce and
Hoffman shared was the real spirit behind the Yippies--a term I coined
to describe a phenomenon that already existed: an organic coalition of
stoned hippies and political activists who engaged in such actions as
throwing money on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, then
explaining to reporters the meaning of that symbolism. Folksinger Phil
Ochs summed it up: "A demonstration should turn you on, not turn you
off." So when journalists link the Yippies with misleading bedfellows,
at best it's careless shorthand; at worst it's deliberate demonization.
Osama bin Laden wanted an aircraft to crash into the Pentagon. Abbie
Hoffman merely wanted to levitate it." -- Paul Krassner,
http://tinyurl.com/ehu3v

To Whom It May Concern: Michael J. Cranston attorney kook is a dog****er