who moved SAV, forgot to tell Jepp?

Dave Butler wrote:
I have yet to receive a specific response to my complaint from either
Garmin or Jepp, but I did get this from Garmin:

Dear Garmin Customer,
Garmin recently discovered omissions within Jeppesen database cycle
0311. This databases affected are only for the Garmin GPSMAP 195,
GPSMAP
196 and GPSMAP 295 products. We have corrected and updated the 0311
database and have posted the updated version as of October 28, 2003
2:45pm
CST. The missing data does not pose a hazard to navigation, however
we feel
that our loyal Garmin customers are entitled to the full database
that they
have purchased. You can obtain the updated version of cycle 0311 on our
website at http://shop.garmin.com/aviation/databases/. Use your existing
unlock code from your previous 0311 update to unlock the modified
database.
If you have any questions or issues while updating your unit , please
contact our Technical Support department at 800-800-1020 or via email
.

Best Regards,

....and now (about 24 hours in) I have a specific response from Jepp:

Mr. Butler,

Jeppesen has confirmed that we currently have only on[sic] SAV VOR in Georgia,
located at 32-08-46.560N / 081-11-56.780W . This agrees with what the FAA
has
currently published. I suspect that the incorrect SAV is a user defined
waypoint that you can delete.

Regards,

Now, I'm quite sure the incorrect version of SAV I am seeing is not a
user-defined waypoint, but nevertheless, this is not an unreasonable response
from Jepp. At least they looked into it and responded. I'll download the new
0311 database from Garmin tonight and we'll see what happens.



Steve P wrote:

The Garmin site currently has this "important note" posted....

Important note: Garmin is currently performing a revision to the
current database cycle for the GPSMAP 195, 196, and 295. No aviation
database updates are available for these three products at this time.
We hope to have a new update posted in the next 24 - 48 hours. Please
check back on 10/29. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have
caused.

Steve P

On 10/28/2003 11:28 AM after considerable forethought, Dave Butler wrote:

wrote:

It wouldn't be the first time Jeppesen got it right, then later
regressed. ;-)




I just spent some quality time with my 196 and I can refine my
observation a little. It seems that *both* positions of the VOR are
in the database, and which instance you see depends on how you get to
it:

- if you find the VOR by a combination of panning and zooming on the
moving map, you see the VOR in its new, correct position.

- if you find the VOR by adding it as a waypoint in a flight plan
using the text interface for adding waypoints, you see the VOR in its
old, incorrect position.

I'll pass along this new information to Garmin/Jepp.

Dave

Dave Butler wrote:


Interesting, thanks. It's cycle 0311 for the Garmin 196, freshly
downloaded last
night, effective date 10/30/2003. Dave

wrote:

You might want to check the date of your new database. My 04 Sep
2003 Jeppesen
database in my Garmin 295 shows the new location of the VOR
directly off the end of
Runway 36, at N 32 08 46.8 W081 11 56.7

That VOR was moved several months ago and the frequency was
changed at the same time.

Dave Butler wrote:



As I was preparing for an angel flight to Savannah last week, I
compared my out
of date approach charts with the online versions and noticed that
all the
approaches using the SAV VOR had changed, and what's more, the
VOR itself had
moved about 5 miles west. No problem, just print new charts from
myairplane.com
(thanks, myairplane.com!) and off we go.

It looks like the VOR was moved from a position about 5 miles NE
of the airport
to a new location just off the departure end of runway 36.

I thought this would be a good excuse to download a new database
for my Garmin
196, so went to the Garmin site and downloaded cycle 0311,
available now, and
scheduled to be effective October 30, two days from now.
Surprise! The VOR is
still shown in its old location in the new database.

There is nothing about the error in the JeppAlerts section on the
Garmin web site.

I've notified Garmin of the error, will notify Jepp and AOPA
shortly.

I'm curious whether people with IFR navigators using Jepp data
see the error.

The old location was apparently: 32-09.635N / 081-06.755W the new
location is
apparently 32-08-46.560N / 081-11-56.780W.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.










--
--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367
I want to know how all our oil got under their sand. --Dana Carvey

I've now had responses from both Garmin and Jeppesen, but no solution yet.

Could someone try the sequence of keypresses below, please and let me know what
you see? This is on a Garmin GPSMAP 196, software version 3.30 and database
cycle 0311 (downloaded after 2:45 PM CST October 28). I think the result is
relevant only if you have a database newer than whenever the location of SAV VOR
was changed. I know it's not changed cycle 0306, but it is changed in cycle
0311. If you have cycle 0311, please say whether it was downloaded before or
after 2:45 PM CST October 28.

Thanks.

Here's how to recreate:
- Aviation mode.
- Active route is cleared.
- map is on "2nm" scale.
- user waypoint list has no entries named "SAV".
- power on
- acknowledge the copyrights (press ENTER twice)
- screen shows "Acquiring Satellites"
- press MENU and ENTER to start simulator mode
- press PAGE 3 times to bring up the "Active Route" page.
- press cursor-down to select the empty space under "Waypoint"
- press ENTER. A "Find" page appears that suggests an entry "KRDU" (my home
airport).
- press cursor-down 3 times and press ENTER to select "OK".
- the Active Route page is displayed, with KRDU as the first entry on the route,
and the next entry, which is blank, is highlighted.
- press ENTER, we're back on the "Find" page, and "KAAA" is suggested as the
next waypoint. Use the cursor and ENTER keys to change this entry to "SAV".
- "SAV" is an ambiguous name, so select "VOR SE USA".
- press ENTER to acknowledge "OK".
- we're back on the Active Route page. The route has the waypoints "KRDU" and
"SAV". The name of the route has changed to "KRDU-SAV 1". Is this a clue(!?)?
- press PAGE twice to display the map. There is a line drawn on the map
representing the active route we just entered.
- press OUT 5 times so the map scale is now "20nm".
- use the cursor control repeatedly to pan to somewhere near the SAV end of the
course line.
- press IN to get the map scale to "2nm". Pan as necessary to see the end of the
course line.
- observe that the SAV VOR is shown on approximately the 5nm ring of the KSAV
class C airpsace, in its old, incorrect location.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

I have already sent Dave this info, but for everybody else:

SAV has been found -- both of them. I have the results posted at
http://www.cockpitgps.com/196/.

Even if you do not care about SAV, it is worth noting if you have a 196 and
update the database. I think that Dave's problem was that he had SAV
already in a saved route. When the update was made, the old location in the
saved route caused the problem.

I do not think that this should happen. I think that you should be able to
update the database without this occuring. In the mean time, you might want
to delete the routes before updating the database so that any changed
waypoint that might be in a route will update. You might also do a system
reset after the update. However, this will wipe out all routes,
preferences, and user waypoints -- it resets the GPS back like it was fresh
from the factory. Hold the QUIT key while turning the GPS on and release
QUIT after powering up. This appears to have fixed the problem in this
case.

John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com

I passed along the information to Garmin.

In a telephone conversation with A Garmin customer-service rep (1-800-800-1020),
Garmin would only say that this problem is "under investigation". Garmin
declined to provide any information that would allow any follow up on the
results of the investigation. There is no "problem number" or any similar
identifier that anyone can inquire about. The customer service person declined
to identify any other person or telephone number I could use to follow up. In
the words of the Garmin rep, if they decide to fix it, you'll see an update. If
not, you won't see an update.

Dave

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It would really be interesting to know whether a Garmin 530 swallowed the bits in
the same manner. If so, Garmin would have a far greater problem than with the 196,
which is a VFR device unlike the 530.

It seems as all this database RNAV stuff gets more complex, the collective we are
taking a wonderful system (GPS) and, in the process of making it do everything for
everyone so to speak, we are increasing the opportunity for an error that could
cause an accident.

Dave Butler wrote:

In a telephone conversation with A Garmin customer-service rep (1-800-800-1020),
Garmin would only say that this problem is "under investigation". Garmin
declined to provide any information that would allow any follow up on the
results of the investigation. There is no "problem number" or any similar
identifier that anyone can inquire about. The customer service person declined
to identify any other person or telephone number I could use to follow up. In
the words of the Garmin rep, if they decide to fix it, you'll see an update. If
not, you won't see an update.

Dave

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.