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SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 11th 18, 01:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Funston[_3_]
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Posts: 129
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:25:58 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:39:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I hope the "pro-FAI guys" realize that the adoption of the FAI rules will necessitate the elimination of the "Airfield Bonus".

I'm looking forward to the old George Moffat philosophy where a death dive to a landout in the boonies to pick up a few points is preferable to a landing at a safe airfield below.

Oh, and no more "staring out the cylinder top" nonsense either.

Guy Byars


Or that safety finish. "Real" pilots get to the finish.
UH


Hank, when you say "safety finish" are you addressing use of a remote finish point in the event of bad weather or having a minimum finish altitude at a set distance from the field?

If it's the latter then that's not necessarily gone. I've flown an FAI contest where we did have a minimum finish height at the finish circle.

Best regards,
Craig
  #22  
Old December 11th 18, 02:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.
  #23  
Old December 11th 18, 06:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

Do FAI rules allow us to change the task in the air with a roll call as often happens? I thought FAI contests publish the tasks really early in the day and stick to it even if the task goes through a storm that pops up before launch.
Chris
  #24  
Old December 11th 18, 06:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 133
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

Has anyone asked if we could add some of the (missing) US centric glider models to the FAI handicap list?
That might make it easier to switch to their system.
Chris
  #25  
Old December 11th 18, 12:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:24:50 AM UTC+2, wrote:
Has anyone asked if we could add some of the (missing) US centric glider models to the FAI handicap list?
That might make it easier to switch to their system.
Chris


Latest FAI Handicap list turned into fiasco because it took a political stance that all old club class gliders should be replaced by newer ones instead of objectively handicapping performance differences. No fair competitions are possible with these handicaps. Do yourself a favour: do not adopt FIA handicaps as a basis for wider handicap list. SC3 does not allow handicaps to any class other than club class so you have a freedom to do whatever you like in national level, though sending teams to Club class WGC without underhandicapped glider ('55, 304 etc.) would be a huge waist of money.
  #26  
Old December 11th 18, 01:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:27:32 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:25:58 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:39:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I hope the "pro-FAI guys" realize that the adoption of the FAI rules will necessitate the elimination of the "Airfield Bonus".

I'm looking forward to the old George Moffat philosophy where a death dive to a landout in the boonies to pick up a few points is preferable to a landing at a safe airfield below.

Oh, and no more "staring out the cylinder top" nonsense either.

Guy Byars


Or that safety finish. "Real" pilots get to the finish.
UH


Hank, when you say "safety finish" are you addressing use of a remote finish point in the event of bad weather or having a minimum finish altitude at a set distance from the field?

If it's the latter then that's not necessarily gone. I've flown an FAI contest where we did have a minimum finish height at the finish circle.

Best regards,
Craig


See Rule 10.9.5.

best,
Evan
  #27  
Old December 11th 18, 02:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.


UH- My personal philosophy is to put maximum emphasis on safety(of course #1), followed by doing the things that maximize participation, from the entry level to the top level. This understandably can be in conflict with actions that mat favor US Team selection and performance at the WGC.
The most recent pilot poll results do not, in my view, agree with my philosophy.
The task of the RC is to seek and implement the best trade off between two conflicting objectives. I know that there is a sincere effort on the part of the RC to accomplish this objective.
Speaking for myself.
UH
  #28  
Old December 11th 18, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 155
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:18:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA.. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.


UH- My personal philosophy is to put maximum emphasis on safety(of course #1), followed by doing the things that maximize participation, from the entry level to the top level. This understandably can be in conflict with actions that mat favor US Team selection and performance at the WGC.
The most recent pilot poll results do not, in my view, agree with my philosophy.
The task of the RC is to seek and implement the best trade off between two conflicting objectives. I know that there is a sincere effort on the part of the RC to accomplish this objective.
Speaking for myself.
UH


Polls are very nice and make everyone feel included, but I am not so sure that in turn becomes a mandate.

I like uniformity when ever possible. I like playing with the same or similar rules. But in moving to an international rules from Local rules I think you have to start at the beginning.

Are the FAI and US goals/priorities the same?
Are the physical/structural issues that require a difference?

In discussions these can be sorted out - in a poll you get a direction not a mandate.

My take is that the pilots polled want to have US rules look more like International and the opportunity to race like international pilots, but I am not so sure it calls for blind adoption. Which by the phased approach seems to be how it is moving. Bravo.

Great job RC - keep talking and tweaking... please.

WH
  #29  
Old December 11th 18, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

Speaking as a non-competition, but curious pilot; when a WGC is held in
the US, whose rules are used to fly the competition, US or FAI? I assume
they use FAI rules so I've got to ask, why would you fly by one set of
rules in your own country at the local, regional, and national level and
then try to compete by a different set at the world level?Â* Seems
counter productive to me.

Make all the usual rationalizations like, weather, local terrain,
Popsicles before takeoff, etc., but the simple fact remains:Â* you're
simply handicapping yourselves by not using the same set of rules all of
the time.

On 12/11/2018 7:27 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:18:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.

UH- My personal philosophy is to put maximum emphasis on safety(of course #1), followed by doing the things that maximize participation, from the entry level to the top level. This understandably can be in conflict with actions that mat favor US Team selection and performance at the WGC.
The most recent pilot poll results do not, in my view, agree with my philosophy.
The task of the RC is to seek and implement the best trade off between two conflicting objectives. I know that there is a sincere effort on the part of the RC to accomplish this objective.
Speaking for myself.
UH

Polls are very nice and make everyone feel included, but I am not so sure that in turn becomes a mandate.

I like uniformity when ever possible. I like playing with the same or similar rules. But in moving to an international rules from Local rules I think you have to start at the beginning.

Are the FAI and US goals/priorities the same?
Are the physical/structural issues that require a difference?

In discussions these can be sorted out - in a poll you get a direction not a mandate.

My take is that the pilots polled want to have US rules look more like International and the opportunity to race like international pilots, but I am not so sure it calls for blind adoption. Which by the phased approach seems to be how it is moving. Bravo.

Great job RC - keep talking and tweaking... please.

WH


--
Dan, 5J
  #30  
Old December 11th 18, 04:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Posts: 337
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:40:47 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Speaking as a non-competition, but curious pilot; when a WGC is held in
the US, whose rules are used to fly the competition, US or FAI? I assume
they use FAI rules so I've got to ask, why would you fly by one set of
rules in your own country at the local, regional, and national level and
then try to compete by a different set at the world level?Â* Seems
counter productive to me.

Make all the usual rationalizations like, weather, local terrain,
Popsicles before takeoff, etc., but the simple fact remains:Â* you're
simply handicapping yourselves by not using the same set of rules all of
the time.


Dan, 5J


Quite right Dan.

Speaking as a SSA member.

Why make it so difficult? Keep the Sports Class rules American and allow the FAI classes to be FAI. It is common sense. If it is reasoned that it takes three seasons to allow American competition pilots the time to understand FAI rules, they should not be representing the USA in competition. The switch back to FAI rules should happen and should not be a long drawn out process. Sometimes people have to let go of cherished ideas that they are long attached to and try to understand what is logical and right. American exceptionalism should be based on competence, not on a faux superior sense of isolation from the rest of the world. We have a few skilled younger (and seasoned) pilots that have displayed superior talent, are passionate and could be among the best in the world if they are given a level playing field to hone and expand their skills. The Society should invest in their success in any and all ways available.

Mike Carris

 




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