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How high does your club tow?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 27th 18, 01:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default How high does your club tow?

Tach time seems like a good way to go for high tows, but I won't make any suggestions about what rate to charge, as situations differ. However, for the "normal" tow, which can be low, as for repeated pattern practice, the typical Hobbs meter that only displays in tenths of an hour, a tow could be 0.1 hour or 0.2 hour or even 0.3 hour, depending on how the numbers click over. Tach based charges also have the effect of charging someone for time spent waiting for traffic to clear, slow hook ups and situations where the tow plane is running with no gliders ready, but not so much of a delay that a shutdown and restart is warranted.

Plus, I doubt that the tow pilot really wants to be that much of a bookkeeper. Reading the altimeter is much easier than checking the tiny numbers on the Hobbs, which is often not in an easily viewed place on the instrument panel.

And let's not forget that tow pilots also differ. We had one who ran B-52 sized patterns that added excessive delays to busy day operations.
  #12  
Old August 27th 18, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default How high does your club tow?

Our club routinely tows to 3000' AGL (field elevation 537') for student flights, and unfortunately also for most other flights - a lot of glider pilots wouldn't want to hear what I'm saying about them in the cockpit when I take them to a boomer at 2000' AGL and they hang on for dear life, finally releasing in sink at 3000'!

The more experienced pilots usually take a 2000' tow which is plenty, of course, without a ridge to use (rare in our part of Illinois)

I've taken high tows on occasions to do acro, but not when there is a crowd waiting to fly - usually a flat calm day anyway.

The trouble with using time for tows is that every tow pilot takes a different amount of time, either by the way he flies or how aggressively he works lift during the tow. I can usually get two full 3000' ft tows done in the time it takes a few of our "more conservative" tow pilots to complete one tow...

Kirk
  #13  
Old August 27th 18, 06:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wyll Surf Air
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner


It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.
  #14  
Old August 27th 18, 08:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Youngblood
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 11:29:18 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Hi Raul,

I would simply tell them, "NO".Â* Glider pilots should be able to gain
height on their own.Â* Or use tach time to calculate the tow rate and
tell them that they must wait until all others have launched.

On 8/26/2018 7:15 AM, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour..

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner


--
Dan, 5J


I am so glad to see this subject being discussed, I will add my two cents worth. There are a few considerations in the determination of how high to tow. Location is a factor and for those in some of these locations this will not apply.
I have always been a proponent of a reasonable tow release point, and I always adhere to that theory. I was taught back in the 70's and you better get your tail off tow at 2000 feet AGL or suffer the consequences of a tongue lashing from Rudy. During my early years I soon learned that getting off tow early and building confidence by staying up was a great way to develop my skills.
Things sure have changed through the years and now I see people taking tows that are not only unnecessary, but damn right stupid. Seems like liberals have taken over the reasonable tow release altitude. I can just hear it, some mother saying, "Tow my little Johnny to 10K, he needs a fair chance and a trophy"!
What is reasonable for a release altitude? If it is a club there should be some guidelines as to the release altitude that works for the club. I live in Florida, and I think that 2000 AGL is the normal tow altitude, with the exception to intro rides and some training.
I have recently put my foot down and informed the tow pilot that there is no need to tow people to the height's that they have requested. I have even been told that some people like to be towed to cloud base, are you kidding me! Where in the world do these attitudes come from?
As a rule of thumb there should always be a prescribed altitude for tow release. If a tow pilot tells you to hang on till he or she gets you to the next cloud then so be it. The main benefit in a reasonable tow release is the life of the tow plane and the increased number of flights for the day. What do you think you club average is from wheel up to wheel down on a 2K tow? It should be somewhere in the vicinity of six to seven minutes.
Now I come to the best part of this who discussion. If you cannot get off tow at a reasonable altitude and stay up, then you need to take up something like sailing or bowling. I pride myself on getting off early, I guess I am just part of the old guard. Bob
  #15  
Old August 27th 18, 09:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Santiago Lopez
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Default How high does your club tow?

They are towing to 42k in Argentina!
  #16  
Old August 27th 18, 09:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 9:15:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner


For training we use 2500 AGL for early flights for more air work time and 2000 for the balance, other than pattern or special circumstance tows.
For soaring pilots( assuming a soaring day), we expect 2000 feet. That said, our tow pilots will center lift they find and we expect experienced pilots to get off when established in lift so we can bring the next person to the same thermal.
We log to the nearest 500 feet. We do not expect the book keeper to do extra work beyond what results from those logs.
If a pilot does not report or log his or her tow height, they can expect a bill for 5000 feet. We get very few repeat offenders.
Last Friday I did 18 tows in 2:15. One was 2500, 7 were 1500, balance 2000 ft. All the low guys stuck.
FWIW
UH
  #17  
Old August 27th 18, 10:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Youngblood
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 4:20:19 PM UTC-4, Santiago Lopez wrote:
They are towing to 42k in Argentina!


Paul Bikle would be laughing at being towed to 42K
  #18  
Old August 27th 18, 10:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Youngblood
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 4:21:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 9:15:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour..

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner


For training we use 2500 AGL for early flights for more air work time and 2000 for the balance, other than pattern or special circumstance tows.
For soaring pilots( assuming a soaring day), we expect 2000 feet. That said, our tow pilots will center lift they find and we expect experienced pilots to get off when established in lift so we can bring the next person to the same thermal.
We log to the nearest 500 feet. We do not expect the book keeper to do extra work beyond what results from those logs.
If a pilot does not report or log his or her tow height, they can expect a bill for 5000 feet. We get very few repeat offenders.
Last Friday I did 18 tows in 2:15. One was 2500, 7 were 1500, balance 2000 ft. All the low guys stuck.
FWIW
UH


Last Saturday our club did 15 tows none lower than 2000, 5 to 2500 and the time was 2.43 on the tach.
  #19  
Old August 28th 18, 12:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default How high does your club tow?

Paul Bikle would be laughing at being towed to 42K

Bob- You have to understand the reasoning behind the 42k tow performed by the Perlan project. This is a research program intended to explore the potential of high altitude stratospheric mountain wave. Previous tows have been to around 5,000 and then using the primary wave structure, altitudes up to 40k and 50k (with a World Record at over 52k) have been achieved. However, the transition from 30k to 50k has been troublesome and time consuming. Perlan has a large electrical demand, including telemetry, scientific instrumentation and, most importantly, life support. Battery capacity has been increased, but with eight hour flights planned on the way to the targeted 90k, reserve electrical capacity could drop below what is considered necessary to provide a margin of safety for essential systems. The 42k tows are intended to get the aircraft to the target wave height so that more efficient use of time (and daylight) can possibly help Perlan reach the goal of flight at 90k. Perhaps some rare condition will develop that can allow for a "low tow" and then climb into the upper atmosphere in the Polar Vortex, but for now, high tows behind the Egrett are deemed a more efficient use of resources to achieve the mission goals.

I am not connected with the Perlan Project, except as being friends with many of the participants, so any errors in the above explanation are mine alone. Best of luck to Perlan, and congratulations on the 62k altitude flight!

  #20  
Old August 28th 18, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Youngblood
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Default How high does your club tow?

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 7:10:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Paul Bikle would be laughing at being towed to 42K

Bob- You have to understand the reasoning behind the 42k tow performed by the Perlan project. This is a research program intended to explore the potential of high altitude stratospheric mountain wave. Previous tows have been to around 5,000 and then using the primary wave structure, altitudes up to 40k and 50k (with a World Record at over 52k) have been achieved. However, the transition from 30k to 50k has been troublesome and time consuming. Perlan has a large electrical demand, including telemetry, scientific instrumentation and, most importantly, life support. Battery capacity has been increased, but with eight hour flights planned on the way to the targeted 90k, reserve electrical capacity could drop below what is considered necessary to provide a margin of safety for essential systems. The 42k tows are intended to get the aircraft to the target wave height so that more efficient use of time (and daylight) can possibly help Perlan reach the goal of flight at 90k. Perhaps some rare condition will develop that can allow for a "low tow" and then climb into the upper atmosphere in the Polar Vortex, but for now, high tows behind the Egrett are deemed a more efficient use of resources to achieve the mission goals.

I am not connected with the Perlan Project, except as being friends with many of the participants, so any errors in the above explanation are mine alone. Best of luck to Perlan, and congratulations on the 62k altitude flight!


Low tow to the polar vortex would be much more impressive. If they have gone from 5 K to 52 K with a low tow it looks like the only constraints are time and electricity. I would really like to see the low tow to 90K ,you would probably agree. Bob
 




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