Was Bush AWOL in 1972 & 1973? | Cuckoo!!! Cuckoo!!! Cuckoo!!!

"Pechs1" wrote in message

Last time...I was an educated, patriotic, healthy young man in the late
60s.

Me, too. Did four years NROTC '64-'68. Not a great time to wear a uniform
on campus, even at a Jesuit school.

The USA was at war, I too wanted to serve my country via the military.

Me, too.

Choosing
the 'national guard' just wasn't in my scan nor in the scan of anybody I
knew.

So what? Should your narrow horizons govern all who would serve? Is
National Guard or Reserve service less honorable than Active Service?

I place GWB in the same catagory as those Naval Aviators that pulled
strings to
stay on the east coast, making Med cruises during VN.

I was LANTFLT VS. My brother in law LANTFLT HS. Some of my classmates were
LANTFLT VP, VF, VA, VAW, VR, VRC, etc.. We went where we told to go. No
strings pulled, just "dream sheets" like anyone else. What we may, or may
not, have put on those sheets are between us and our detailers and God.

Or are "dreamsheets" now "strings"?

No one questions your choice. You made it. You live with its consequences.
That choice neither elevates nor demeans you morally or ethically.

Frankly, the entire issue amounts to a mosquito fart in a hurricane. The
evidence appears to be that Kerry was an effective JO under fire. That
neither makes him more nor less qualified to be C-in-C. We don't know what
Bush might have done under fire. This neither makes him more nor less
qualified to be C-in-C.

We do know that Kerry declared his opposition ot the War upon his return to
CONUS and stated that he would return his medals. He did not do so. That
makes him either a liar or constitutes his first, big "flip-flop." Either
way it raises questions in my mind.

We also know that Kerry has "carried water" for Teddy K. for decades. When
a Kennedy says "frog" then Kerry jumps. We know that his legislative record
as a senator is remarklybly blank. We know that he is a very rich, very
liberal MA politician married to an even richer wife. Somehow this does
not, necessarily, equate to concern for either the common man or the average
veteran.

Regarding W, I am a V2R (Very Reluctant Republican). I seriously mistrust
many of the "social conservatives" that surround him. His performance at
Bob Jones University damn near made me stay home on '2000. But, living in
TN, I knew enough about Prince Albert to know that he was not the guy I
wanted to be C-in-C (in spite of his "Vietnam Combat Experience). Thus, my
reluctant choice.

His performance in office up to 9/11 was in the finest traditions of Millard
Filmore. But, then, he got an opportunity to excell. And, IMO, has done a
much better job that the Prince would have done. Since the Prince and Kerry
are cut from the same cloth (rich, liberals living in the shelter of their
family's connections) my choice is, again, to be a V2R.

I lived as a USN and a USNR. There were men of honor and scoundrals in both
worlds. Such is life.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

On 8/31/04 8:34 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- If you like Kerry more, that's your business, but serving in the Air
Guard
or reserves is still serving until defined otherwise by the government.
BRBR

Agree but why not look at the specifics of the time and the people involved
instead of brushing this with such a wide swath?

Why did GWB join the F-102 guard instead of another type unit, the USAF or the
USN?

Why the F-102? Did have some love affair with the mission of flying intercepts
against big targets, letting loose a Genie and goin home? Did he know that of
all the A/C in the ANG and USAF inventory at the time, the F-102 was the least
likely to go to VN?

Dunno. Don't care.

No question that serving in the ANG was a better deal than going to Viet Nam
in an active duty unit--good deal for President Bush. His good deal was
nobody else's bad deal. Frankly, if I had a child that wanted to go USN
active duty aviation, I'd advise them against it, and suggest trying for an
ANG unit too. Viet Nam or not. It's still a better deal.

Cut President Bush a wide swath for his ANG duty and/or cut Senator Kerry a
wide swath for his 3 purple hearts and post-combat conduct in front of
Congress... and/or former President Clinton for his ability to avoid the war
entirely. These events contribute specifically to defining each man's
character. I leave that definition based on those events to you.

It seems to me that folks pick the side they like (or dislike) most first,
then justify their candidate's military service based on that like or
dislike.

What matters to me is the politician's conduct, decisions, and policy-making
skill.

--Woody

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...

the ANG(a flying club using USAF equipment),

You know Pechs, I for one deeply resent your insistent back door
implications about the ANG, and I don't give a rat's ass which side of
the political coin you have chosen. That's your business. Frankly, I
wouldn't expect to be reading crap like this coming from you. You,above
all people should know better.

I'm here to tell you that flying high performance airplanes in any
man's cockpit is a GD dangerous business, and it doesn't matter a rat's
damn whether you're in the guard or the active AF.
My best friend died in a guard F86 when the GD maintenance nightmare J47
he had under him swallowed a f*****g bucket on pitchout with his side of
the pattern over a heavily populated area. He did his best to point the
damn thing in a marsh before he punched, but by that time he was way too
low and way out of the seat envelope. He got out, but hit strapped in
the seat; so don't try and tell me the ANG is a soft ticket.
I don't know what Bush's aims were and frankly I don't give a damn. The
102 was no easy ride, and the guard isn't the softest place to be on
many occasions! Woody's right!
So ease up pardner; you're WAY off base here!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

On 31 Aug 2004 13:34:38 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

Doug- If you like Kerry more, that's your business, but serving in the Air
Guard
or reserves is still serving until defined otherwise by the government.
BRBR

Agree but why not look at the specifics of the time and the people involved
instead of brushing this with such a wide swath?

Why did GWB join the F-102 guard instead of another type unit, the USAF or the
USN?
Your question is just plain silly - or stupid, take your pick.
Why did serve in the Navy, Commander? You could have been a Marine,
or a special forces, or a SEAL or a plane captain, or a ???????



Why the F-102? Did have some love affair with the mission of flying intercepts
against big targets, letting loose a Genie and goin home? Did he know that of
all the A/C in the ANG and USAF inventory at the time, the F-102 was the least
likely to go to VN?
Hindsight is a marvelous thing but in the hands of someone like you -
it appears to be dangerous...
Regards,



P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Dudley You know Pechs, I for one deeply resent your insistent back door
implications about the ANG BRBR

Calm down and try to read all of my posts. I never said the ANG wasn't flying
dangferous A/C but the ANG is not the USAF. It is different organization,
different ways of doing business.

Try to step back and look at the world in 1968 when this so called 'patriot'
who wanted to 'serve his country' decided to join the national guard instad of
going into the 'military'.

Ya know, flying anything is dangerous and some of the very best pilots I have
ever fought were ANG or USN reserve guys but try to see the context of what I'm
saying.

Dudley- I don't know what Bush's aims were and frankly I don't give a damn
BRBR

Do ya care what Kerry's aims were? can't have it both ways.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Doug- No question that serving in the ANG was a better deal than going to
Viet Nam
in an active duty unit-- BRBR

Sorry, don't get this. Altho nobody in the military wants to go to combat, I
would have liked to experience it. The people I have read about, including Ed
R., view SEA combat operations as the best times of their military careers.

Doug Frankly, if I had a child that wanted to go USN
active duty aviation, I'd advise them against it, and suggest trying for an
ANG unit too. Viet Nam or not. It's still a better deal. BRBR


Surprised at you. Why?
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

charlie- Why did serve in the Navy, Commander? You could have been a Marine,
or a special forces, or a SEAL or a plane captain, or a ??????? BRBR

Wanted to fly in the active duty Navy off CVs, fleet aviator, which I view as
the best of the best. I went to HS and college during the midst of the VN war,
and continued the path regardless of this. I did my best and would have been
sent to where ever the USN told me to go. West or east. Even a fast track into
a CV/squadron on Yankee station.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Bill- So what? Should your narrow horizons govern all who would serve? Is
National Guard or Reserve service less honorable than Active Service?
BRBR

In general no, but during a 'war', it just doesn't make sense to me. It would
be like just after 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, a yound man would join the 'guard'
instead of the active duty military.

Bill- Frankly, the entire issue amounts to a mosquito fart in a hurricane.
The
evidence appears to be that Kerry was an effective JO under fire. That
neither makes him more nor less qualified to be C-in-C. We don't know what
Bush might have done under fire. This neither makes him more nor less
qualified to be C-in-C. BRBR

That's the crux of my beef. Throwing stones at an active duty USN officer, by a
group that supports somebody that was not(including his VP).

This is over for me. I will focus on the election considering other things like
Iraq, the envionment, the economy, health care......
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
Dudley You know Pechs, I for one deeply resent your insistent back
door
implications about the ANG BRBR

Calm down and try to read all of my posts. I never said the ANG wasn't
flying
dangferous A/C but the ANG is not the USAF. It is different
organization,
different ways of doing business.

Try to step back and look at the world in 1968 when this so called
'patriot'
who wanted to 'serve his country' decided to join the national guard
instad of
going into the 'military'.

Ya know, flying anything is dangerous and some of the very best pilots
I have
ever fought were ANG or USN reserve guys but try to see the context of
what I'm
saying.

Dudley- I don't know what Bush's aims were and frankly I don't give
a damn
BRBR

Do ya care what Kerry's aims were? can't have it both ways.

As far as I'm concerned, you're taking your politics and putting them in
my cockpit. What you have said about the ANG has absolutely nothing to
do with politics. Your opinions about the President are a separate
issue, and you above all people should know that.
Your comments about either Bush or Kerry is you own business, but when
you start branching off that context into saying that the ANG "is a
flying club using Air Force Equipment", you're WAY out of line with me
anyway!
You will notice as an indication of my point, that I have not had to get
into politics at all in dealing with you on this issue.
I'm sorry we have to disagree, and it's perfectly ok with me that you
have political fervor and the need to express it; but FWIW, the Air
National Guard is NOT a flying club using Air Force equipment, and you
can take THAT to the bank and Ps on it!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Pechs1" wrote in message

Bill- So what? Should your narrow horizons govern all who would serve?
Is
National Guard or Reserve service less honorable than Active Service?
BRBR

In general no, but during a 'war', it just doesn't make sense to me.

OK.

It would
be like just after 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, a yound man would join the
'guard'
instead of the active duty military.

Or maybe the Coast Guard?

Again, don't allow your prejudices to blacken the decisions of others who
may have/had very good reasons for doing what they are/were doing.

Bill- Frankly, the entire issue amounts to a mosquito fart in a
hurricane.
The
evidence appears to be that Kerry was an effective JO under fire. That
neither makes him more nor less qualified to be C-in-C. We don't know
what
Bush might have done under fire. This neither makes him more nor less
qualified to be C-in-C. BRBR

That's the crux of my beef. Throwing stones at an active duty USN officer,
by a
group that supports somebody that was not(including his VP).

Asking a question is not "throwing stones." The motivation of the
questioner has nothing to do with accuracy of the answer.

This is over for me. I will focus on the election considering other things
like
Iraq, the envionment, the economy, health care......

Good choice.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão