Directional control after touchdown...

I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan

you've got the right idea, you want to get the nose gear onto the
runway as soon as possible, for wind like that you can center the
ailerons, you only really need continous input when theres a strong
cross wind. centering the ailerons should counter the drift. use left
toe brake if you feel the aircraft skidding when using rudder input.
the sooner you get the nose gear to the runway the sooner you'll have
directional control

Dan,

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind.


Well, seems your nose indicates something else, doesn't it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Dan wrote:
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

It depends on the reason for the drift. If it is because you landed
without being aligned, then I would hold the aileron into the wind and
correct with rudder. If it is because the wind really is from the other
side, then I would immediately correct the aileron position. However,
you would know the latter based on the control inputs required to
maintain alignment on final. You should have no doubt as to the wind
direction prior to touch down. It sounds like the airplane wasn't
aligned with the runway at touch down and you just need more rudder to
get things back on track.

Matt

Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

On May 19, 11:26 pm, Dan wrote:
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan
My immediate thought was to schedule some more cross wind instruction
with a good instructor! We are not talking about much wind at all.
ATIS wind is not much of a crosswind - 20deg @ 10kts? I'd be inclined
to use less aileron and more rudder if its drifting right into the
wind. I sure as hell wouldn't drop the nosewheel to the runway and try
to force nosewheel steering with the directional control in question!
And for sure I wouldn't try to correct it with any brakes. Keep in
mind, if its light enough to drift, its still light enough on the
wheels they'll lock up and skid real easy with any brakes.
I'd be putting in lots of rudder, easing full aft elevator to keep
weight off the nose gear, and whatever aileron needed to keep wings
level. If that doesn't work, I'd be giving serious consideration to
making an immediate go around to take a 2nd look at what is happening.
Makes more sense than going off into the weeds while obviously being
behind the aircraft?
Soaring Buzzard
Infamous Worldwide Pilot/Instructor

This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind, I
would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep the
airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the flare and
landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10 knots,
and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the windsock
confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a noticeable
crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan

On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.

--Dan

Could it be the ground effect differences between low wing and high wing
aircraft that are contributing to this issue?


"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.

--Dan

Dan wrote:
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?
Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

As a previous poster wrote, ATIS is only a guide. Keep in mind that the
wind is only measured at one place on the airport.

Ailerons should always be properly deflected when taxiing, taking off or
landing. What direction to apply them and how much will depend on the
direction the aircraft is moving and the direction the wind is striking
the aircraft from.

Taxiing with a tailwind is different than taxiing with a headwind or
crosswind. Your instructor should have covered that with you in your
primary training. If they didn't find a new instructor.

The best recommendation is to get some taildragger training with an
experienced taildragger instructor. THAT will really teach you about
proper control position and use in an aircraft.

How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

You only apply as much rudder as necessary to maintain control in the
direction you want to go.