Directional control after touchdown...

On May 19, 11:26 pm, Dan wrote:
You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

Dan, a couple other things to consider...

Is there just you and an instructor in the plane?

How big are you and the instructor?

Full fuel, two up front, at 65 kts, your over the numbers speed is too
fast.

Try slowing to 55 - 60 kts over the numbers. Full stall stall speed is
going to be below 45 kts at the lighter weight.
Your are drifting because you are still too light on the wheels.

Does the stall horn go off as the wheels touch the ground?

Do you float down the runway between roundout and touchdown?

You should be maintaining pitch attitude as the aircraft settles by
steadily increasing backpressure on the yoke.

Even as the wheels touch, you continue to steadily pull backpressure and
hold it full aft until your in your parking spot and the engine is shut
down.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message


Could it be the ground effect differences between low wing and high
wing aircraft that are contributing to this issue?

"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...

I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.

My guess is the difference in nose gear steering. Skylanes use a bungee to
"persuade" the nose gear to turn in a given direction while the typical
Piper nosegear is much more authoritative.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.

Happy landings,

On Sun, 20 May 2007 20:20:10 GMT, "Private"
wrote:

I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.

Along with all the good stuff that's been mentioned...

If it's a towered field, simply say "Wind Check?" into the mic while
turning final and the tower person will usually give you an instant
reading like "330 @ 9, gusting 14". A double click of the mic button
will confirm reception, no readback or callsign necessary. You
don't need a callsign or any other info when asking, simply "Wind
Check?", they'll know what it means. Both the ask and response are
very quick and don't waste much radio time.

Most of the non-towered fields I use have either an AWOS or ASOS
(maybe Belfort? G), that updates every minute, but the same caveats
apply about the location of the instrument taking the reading vs. the
runway.

This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the
wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast
and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction.
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan

Dan wrote:
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?
Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

No, you should know from which side the wind is coming before you ever
touch down. This is very easily detected while on final. And if you
slip to accommodate the crosswind (which is the correct way in this
airplane and almost all others), then you know exactly what is up before
you ever touch down and you also know if the crosswind component is
within the control authority of the airplane.


How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

Quite a bit, but if you start to ground loop, then back off! One thing
my primary instructor stress was that you ALWAYS apply whatever control
input is required to get the performance you desire. You don't fly to
some preplanned target. He was not a fly by the numbers pilot and,
while I appreciate the need for that in many high performance airplanes,
his basic philosophy is sound. The conditions are what they are, not
what you planned for or what you wish they were. Fly the conditions,
not some preconceived notion of what they should be.


I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.

My Skylane wasn't squirrelly at all. Typically, it is the pilot that is
squirrelly. :-)

Matt

Private wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.

A wind sock is nice, but entirely optional. If you can't peg the wind
pretty well while flying final, then you need more instruction and more
practice.

Matt

Dudley Henriques wrote:
This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the
wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast
and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction.
Dudley Henriques

Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what
you think they are or wish they were.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:
This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire
thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for
the wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all
forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and
direction.
Dudley Henriques

Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you
think they are or wish they were.

Matt

"You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish
they were".
How's that!! :-))
DH

Bill Denton wrote:
Could it be the ground effect differences between low wing and high wing
aircraft that are contributing to this issue?


No, I noticed that right away after I bought my Bonanza. With my 182 it
was second nature to manipulate the aileron for the wind while taxiing.
In the Bo I don't bother as there's no reason to. I simply hold the
yoke so the controls don't get slammed around in the wind. With a high
wing the wing is out there on a longer lever plus the wheel track is a
little narrower.