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#21
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
a wrote
I'm wondering why the 60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a 'chute for all occupants doesn't apply? Because there was no one else on board except for a crewmember. (c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds— (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon. (d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to— (1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by— (i) A certificated flight instructor; If you do not have a copy of the U.S. Aviation Regulations, they can be found he http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*58994814!_h-www.landings.com/ _landings/pages/regulations.html Bob Moore |
#22
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 2:52*pm, Robert Moore wrote:
a wrote I'm wondering why the *60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a 'chute for all occupants doesn't apply? Because there was no one else on board except for a crewmember. (c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds— (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon. (d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to— (1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by— (i) A certificated flight instructor; If you do not have a copy of the U.S. Aviation Regulations, they can be found he http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*58994814!_h-www.landings.com/ _landings/pages/regulations.html Bob Moore Thanks. The part I read did not have the parans excluding crew members. It's a non issue for me, My m20J does not (intentionally) see anything like those pitch and bank limits. I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip. As somone mentioned, for non preasurized airplanes, the most likely need to get down fast is a fire, and a slip may keep the flames away from the cabin. Mooney's slip really well but losing energy while flying coordinated is a chore -- come in hot for a landing and you'll float forever. I''ll have to try a turn while slipping sometime although a turn into the low wing side makes it a little more coordinated and I would be reluctant to try to turn into my blind (high wing) side. |
#23
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
a wrote:
I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip. I once have been caught on top of an overcast. Don't ask me how I managed to get in that position, it was entirely my mistake and pretty dumb. Anyway, once there and being only VFR rated, I was happy to know how to spiral-slip down through a hole. |
#24
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 5:21*pm, John Smith wrote:
a wrote: I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip. Just curious A, What's the POH say for emergency descent speeds for the Mooney? I know for sure, that I cannot do 152 knots (POH says 152 for emergency descents) doing a slip in my Sundowner with all that drag. I couldn't even get to VNE nose down within my own safe parameters without bank. Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for collision avoidance. I wanted to get a feel for what the plane would do under non emergency situations and it was a huge lesson learned for me. |
#26
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
"BeechSundowner" wrote in message ... Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for collision avoidance. I missed this point the first time, so I am glad you repeated it. Of course! To avoid a collision, you do whatever is necessary and you may have to decide instantaneously and instinctively. That said... A spiral (even a fast descending spiral) is not my first choice for collision avoidance because 1) I prefer a strategy that allows me to keep sight of the aircraft I am avoiding, You just don't know what the other aircraft is going to do. and... 2) A spiral takes me back near (or to) to the bit of airspace that contained the other aircraft. That is the last place where I want to go! (Yes, I know you are descending for avoidance, but the other pilot may have seen you and made the same choice at the same moment) Just my 2 cents for discussion. Vaughn |
#27
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
In article
, BeechSundowner wrote: On Aug 23, 10:02*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote: *Besides, in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle! Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the research before doing this maneuver in the first place. The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better myself in see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in VFR training in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my own plane? Let me just toss in my two cents in support of your position. Nothing I saw in the video looked even remotely dangerous. I can't speak to the regs, not being a lawyer, but IMO keeping your skills sharp outweighs following every dotted i and crossed t. Seems some pilots can't stomach the idea of doing anything out of the ordinary. 30-degree banks and no more, please! Fly all approaches at 1.3Vso and touch down at exactly 1000ft beyond the threshold! Now, I don't want to sound like I'm advocating doing dangerous things just because they're interesting. Quite the contrary: ensuring the safety of the maneuver should be the top goal. But there is nothing AUTOMATICALLY unsafe about exceeding 60 degrees of bank, just like it's not AUTOMATICALLY safe to do anything that stays within the bounds set by the FARs and the POH. In short: carry on, and keep posting those videos! -- Mike Ash Radio Free Earth Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon |
#28
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 8:13*pm, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
"BeechSundowner" wrote in message news:4a61563b-a2b2-4519-a3af- ... On Aug 23, 5:21 pm, John Smith wrote: a wrote: I still maintain the fastest way down is a strong slip. Just curious A, What's the POH say for emergency descent speeds for the Mooney? I know for sure, that I cannot do 152 knots (POH says 152 for emergency descents) doing a slip in my Sundowner with all that drag. I couldn't even get to VNE nose down within my own safe parameters without bank. Again, the purpose of this exercise for me was emergency descent for collision avoidance. *I wanted to get a feel for what the plane would do under non emergency situations and it was a huge lesson learned for me. Be carefull up there! I have been told several times that the the vertical tail is the weak link on most aircraft--not just the Airbus 320--and that the maximum speed permissible for full rudder deflection is frequently less than the stated "maneuvering speed. Assuming the above is true, I have no idea how to determine the maximum speed for full rudder deflection. Peter Agree Peter, I would never hang any parts of the plane outside the white arc :-))) much less do a slip for emergency descent.. I learned from this exercise that I can't even get to VNE without bank without an excessive amount of forward pressure on the yoke. I am a believer in NOT forcing the plane to doing something it won't do. Bank sure took care of that problem :-)) |
#29
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
"Mike Ash" wrote in message
... In article , BeechSundowner wrote: On Aug 23, 10:02 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote: Besides, in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle! Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the research before doing this maneuver in the first place. The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better myself in see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in VFR training in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my own plane? Let me just toss in my two cents in support of your position. Nothing I saw in the video looked even remotely dangerous. I can't speak to the regs, not being a lawyer, but IMO keeping your skills sharp outweighs following every dotted i and crossed t. Seems some pilots can't stomach the idea of doing anything out of the ordinary. 30-degree banks and no more, please! Fly all approaches at 1.3Vso and touch down at exactly 1000ft beyond the threshold! Now, I don't want to sound like I'm advocating doing dangerous things just because they're interesting. Quite the contrary: ensuring the safety of the maneuver should be the top goal. But there is nothing AUTOMATICALLY unsafe about exceeding 60 degrees of bank, just like it's not AUTOMATICALLY safe to do anything that stays within the bounds set by the FARs and the POH. In short: carry on, and keep posting those videos! -- Mike Ash Radio Free Earth Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon All I can say to that is: Well said! Peter |
#30
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
Peter Dohm wrote:
I have been told several times that ... the maximum speed permissible for full rudder deflection is frequently less than the stated "maneuvering speed. You have been told rubbish. Up to maneuvring speed it is safe to instantly and fully deflect any ****rol, also the rudder. *But* this is only true from straight and level flight and for one isolated deflection of one isolated control. (Which the pilots of that famous Airbus obviously ignored, who wildly waggled the rudder until it broke off, creating such urban legends like the one you've cited above.) |
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