Death of the 13.5m class?

I have to agree with Eric, here.Â* Patti and I first tried a Pipistrel
Sinus so she could learn to fly, but it was a disappointment to me as a
glider.Â* Fortunately I had kept my LAK-17a for soaring, but she wanted
to try soaring, too, so the Stemme was the ideal solution.Â* We can
launch whenever we want, experience high performance soaring
side-by-side, and go places without a tow plane to worry about.

As to performance, just look at some of Mike Abernathy's flights on
OLC.Â* He knows how to use the Stemme!

On 12/27/2017 7:40 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 11:55:37 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Tango Eight wrote on 12/26/2017 6:19 AM:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.
Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.
I fly a motor glider because it can change how the soaring is done
Exactly.

Back to the original point: the motorized guys have a track record in the IGC. Non-motorized guys -- if they care -- should pay attention to that. If Mr Fitch and like minded folk on the IGC can sing 'em all to sleep, well, I'm on my own! At least there's one hard ass left!

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan, 5J

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On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
http://www.spr.aero/wcc-main-news/e-...-for-electric-
gliders.aspx

Greetings to all from a very snowy and cold Montreal;

I think you all fail to grasp the reasons for the creation of the 13.5m class in the first place, and now the debate is shifting towards 'powered', or 'assisted' flight within that class. It's really very simple: membership and participation in our sport/hobby/passion is waning, and any approach, wether influenced by technology, design philosophy, ergonomics, aesthetics, and perhaps most important of all, cost, taken towards shifting this tide, or at least curbing it, should be encouraged and not poo-pooed. God forbid had Wilbur and Orvil stuck to this glider-only mode of flight just to assuage the purist's sensibilities and a return to the ways of Lilienthal.

Would any sailing enthusiast out there forego the flexibility offered by an outboard motor on even the smallest of watercraft to get in and out of the marina for a club race against his buddies on a warm summer evening after work just for the sake of adhering to some old rule or concept? And how about the 'traditional', hand tool-only woodworker in a modern suburb? Do you honestly think he could put together a masterpiece without someone else using a chainsaw to cut the tree, a sawmill to prepare it, and at least one or more power tool to prepare the stock, and modern chemistry to perfect his adhesive? I digress.

I suggest that anyone who would argues against adoption of technology go out and create a glider class of their own, or join the 'Vintage Glider Association'. There are a lot of very happy blokes there, but they are not winning any races with their classic birds, and they could offer you many design 'suggestions' for your new class, to wit:


-No motor or propulsion of any kind
-No electronics of any kind, either for navigation or lift detection and thermal centring
-No radio to talk with ATC, towplane, glider port or retrieve crew
-No mobile phones (see above)
-No transponder or FLARM, so other contestants have no idea where your going
-No parachute, because they are for sissies, and neither Otto, Orvil and his brother had one
-No relief tube, as your flights will be short anyway
-No food, snacks or water (see above)
-No rubber undercarriage, skid only
-No instruments, yaw string only
-Steel tube, wood and fabric construction only
-No towplane, winch only, as we are in an environmentally and noise sensitive neighbourhood
-Open cockpit, NO canopy allowed, windscreen only. ( Maximum dimension 8" by 10" with 1/16" maximum thickness, to allow the birds a chance of penetrating the cockpit during high-speed final glide)

Gentlemen, nobody is forcing you to hang a motor on your beautiful 18m plastic whirligigs. But I would offer you my own reservations against the status quo: with the current world-wide pilot shortage, it is increasingly difficult to find 'experienced' young pilots willing and able to fly our aging fleet of tow aircraft. Too many times on weekdays when soaring conditions are good, I am the only one left to tow while all my 'mates' are off having a jolly good time while I am left festering in the corner of the field awaiting their triumphant return. Well not really, as I'm too busy sulking, but I can go up for a quick 15 minute sunset hope at the end of the soaring day when another tug pilot shows up after work. But maybe, just maybe, someday I could alight from the tow plane and hop into my little self-lauch 13.5m glider and enjoy the rest of the day.

Thank you for following through my diatribe.

John Hebert
Montreal, Canada

How many of us would happily hang a motor of some kind on our gliders if:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 07:31:39 -0800, gebodc9 wrote:

Would any sailing enthusiast out there forego the flexibility offered by
an outboard motor on even the smallest of watercraft to get in and out
of the marina for a club race against his buddies on a warm summer
evening after work just for the sake of adhering to some old rule or
concept?

Bad analogy. Thats equivalent to disallowing winch-/auto-/aero-tow
launching and has little or no relevance to carrying (or not) a power
source that can be started in the air.

As others have said, the nearest equivalent in sailing to carrying an air-
startable mechanical lift source, i.e. electric or IC turbo or FES
without counting its use as a land-out, would be the 'grinder' teams in
or carrying an engine to spin the winches in AmCup boats.

And how about the 'traditional', hand tool-only woodworker in a
modern suburb? Do you honestly think he could put together a masterpiece
without someone else using a chainsaw to cut the tree, a sawmill to
prepare it, and at least one or more power tool to prepare the stock,
and modern chemistry to perfect his adhesive? I digress.

Well, there is a sort-of distant relationship he if gliders were still
wood, the manufacturers would have a nice steady income from replacing
old gliders as they develop rot or glue joint failure rather than their
current problem that at least partly comes from longevity of metal and
composite gliders, which can go on flying for a very long time unless
they get totalled in a crash.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie
| dot org

Sorry, hit the wrong key. Let's try again.

How many of us would happily hang a motor of some kind on our gliders if:

1. The cost were zero; and
2. The complication were minimal.

I would. Then we could sit around discussing to what extent and how we wanted to allow motor use during a contest.

Until then, a big part of the debate, to me, revolves around something that--once again, in defiance of the downward trend in soaring activity--we're talking about making a change that will push costs up significantly. Yeah, we can say it's not mandatory. But if--as occurred when the 18M class was launched--pilots move in that direction, it will have an effect anyway.

Just my opinion.

Chip Bearden

Sailing eh? The sailors complain that every new class is more $ and smaller fleets. Sailors maintain that the foiling boats have done nothing for increasing sailing participation. If that new Ventus M doesn't inspire anyone a new 13.5 whizbox at half the price isn't going to either. Participation numbers are a separate issue from intermittent engine runs in soaring. First is cultural, second will lead to ridiculous electric airplane races, and less people racing or setting records once they merge the classes. And they will. Remember when it was thought ludicrous to have motorgliders and pure gliders in the same class? For the motor guys to feel legitimate they need to eliminate the pure class. With separate motor classes their accomplishments will never feel equal to them so pureness has to die. Since you brought up participation it's a cultural problem, men no longer own their free time. In the heyday if dad was a glider pilot you spent weekends at the airport, if dad was a sailor you spend weekends on the water. Now dad spends weekends driving his kids to playdates, recitals, and sports games. Not saying it is doom and gloom, plenty of bums to keep soaring going, but for the numbers to come back men need to reclaim their time and that is a cultural issue larger than any one sport.

Geb (john), the point most of us are making is NOT against technology, its against what defines "soaring" flight. I dont care how a guy gets in the air, towplane, bungee, onboard engine, falling off a cliff. I DO care that someone "assist" their "soaring" flight using an engine while on course. You start the engine on course, your soaring flight just ended.

If you want to start another "class" of racing thats fine, and who knows it might catch on, but don't call it or equate it with what we have now.

As for your lack of tow pilots, we could lend you some of ours. We have a club of 50 members and have 8 tow pilots with more wanting to do it than we have flights for. Maybe you think you don't have any tailwheel fliers up there. You need to recruit from the ranks of crop dusters and wantabe crop dusters. They are all tailwheel guys, and the youngsters wanting to get into dusters are always looking for a place to get more free tailwheel time. If you don't want to do that, sell your pawnee and replace it with a c-182. There's always guys wanting to build time.
Dan

How ironic. This whole “engine run� issue has been fought over in all the FAI classes of radio control soaring for 10 years now. Some of the classes involve scale birds (JS-1s, Arcii, ASG-29s, etc) with spans up to 30 feet. It’s as contentious as ever and makes a Chinese fire drill look like a Marine parade. Good luck.
Remember when men where men (post above) and gliders didn’t have engines?? Old fashioned? Proudly! Snobbish? To the max!