Owning more expensive than renting

wrote in message
news:cf%xd.6954$rL3.3392@trnddc03...

On 21-Dec-2004, "Matt Barrow" wrote:

I find two on ASO for just under $5M, a 1999 and a 2001 model.
Whatever...it's still way outside my budget.

I'm not impressed with the present market for the Cessna 441's I see on
the market. I can pick up a Commander 840 or even a 900 for less than
$1M,
which is more akin to the budget and still suites the mission just fine.


Just remember that operating and maintenance costs for a 20 year old twin
turboprop will be the same or higher than for a brand new one.

Probably the same, and insurance probably will be less. Many of the ones I
saw have been refurbished, and some have been completely restored. One has
virtually new TFE331-10T engines (20 hours) and another, has an all new
Garmin/Meggitt panel.

Purchase
price is only part of the story. The real question is, how much can you
afford in total hourly cost to fly the plane? Oh, and don't forget the
cost
and time for recurrent training, which your insurance carrier is bound to
require.

Well, if I save a half million or more, I can afford a lot of training :~)

Like I said, I've got a couple months to keep digging.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:47:18 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Mary gets the right leading edge, and beer/pop.
What about the rest of the wing?
What about the horizonta and vertical stabilizors and rudder?

These parts get "The Pledge" treatment occasionally, when we're feeling
especially ambitious. They don't really get dirty -- only dusty. (As long
as your plane is hangared, of course.)

Yah, but how do you get the bugs to stick if you put pledge on the
wings?


My son gets the empennage
Does this include the belly?

Our new M20 air/oil separator has basically put my son out of business. I
used to pay him $.50 per wingspan foot (30 feet = $15) to clean the bottom
of the plane once a month. Now, he hasn't had to do it since August.

Air oil separator on the Deb (IO-47N) with no oil filter and it has a
wet vacuum pump, has no noticeable oil use in 25 hours. Engine is
nearing TBO.

The belly would stay clean if I'd only fly in nice weather and stay
off the grass farm strips.

Bugs on the wings and cowl are another matter.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

:-)

Roger wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:47:18 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


Mary gets the right leading edge, and beer/pop.

What about the rest of the wing?
What about the horizonta and vertical stabilizors and rudder?

These parts get "The Pledge" treatment occasionally, when we're feeling
especially ambitious. They don't really get dirty -- only dusty. (As long
as your plane is hangared, of course.)


Yah, but how do you get the bugs to stick if you put pledge on the
wings?

Fly faster, of course.


Matt

Matt, stepping up to an all weather turboprop aircraft is a whole new
world... Until you have a year or two of flying one on a gotta-be-there
schedule, you need someone in the cockpit who's major skill set is
pushing aluminum from point A to point B in any weather, not building
houses in any weather...
No, the hired pilot doesn't 'have' to be ATP rated but he/she needs to
be commercial, CFII, with real world experience - military flying, or
bush pilot time, air taxi time, UPS, etc... This will help you
tremendously in the cost of insurance which is going to be a big ticket
item if you are the named pilot and just moving into turbine aircraft -
having a propilot with turbine experience as the named pilot initially
will save you money up front and get you (almost) free instruction time
until you can satisfy the insurance minimum turbine time requirement...
Look in Trade-A-Plane for guys wanting a job... There are folks with
both technical education and turbine time looking for work...
Monster.com is a resource also.. While I suggested a full time
employee who is available on demand, there are folks who will work just
for the flying, also...

Denny

Denny

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Matt, stepping up to an all weather turboprop aircraft is a whole new
world...

Probably not as bad as the Baron I used to own.

Until you have a year or two of flying one on a gotta-be-there
schedule, you need someone in the cockpit who's major skill set is
pushing aluminum from point A to point B in any weather, not building
houses in any weather...

I've been managing to push aluminum around for all these years, including
the eight that I've spent building my business, I imagine that it can't be
worse than getting there in my Bonanza.

No, the hired pilot doesn't 'have' to be ATP rated but he/she needs to
be commercial, CFII, with real world experience - military flying, or
bush pilot time, air taxi time, UPS, etc... This will help you
tremendously in the cost of insurance which is going to be a big ticket
item if you are the named pilot and just moving into turbine aircraft -
having a propilot with turbine experience as the named pilot initially
will save you money up front and get you (almost) free instruction time
until you can satisfy the insurance minimum turbine time requirement...
Look in Trade-A-Plane for guys wanting a job... There are folks with
both technical education and turbine time looking for work...
Monster.com is a resource also.. While I suggested a full time
employee who is available on demand, there are folks who will work just
for the flying, also...

Thanks for your comments.
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:51:53 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Flying on paved strips only helps a lot. My airplane was based on a
grass/dirt strip for several years and pledge and a diaper just wouldn't
cut it!

We fly into a grass strip half a dozen times per year, and it takes Pledge,
diapers, and Simple Green (on the fiberglass parts) to clean up after those
excursions...

Likewise, I have a 1700' gravel driveway and my cars definitely need a
water bath before washing or I'd have my paint ground away in a few
washings.

Gravel driveways are the norm in rural Iowa. You can really tell the

We have a lot of "dirt" driveways in rural Michigan as well.
Although I don't see it much any more, at one time you could purchase
a car with a "chip guard" right from the factory, which was a kind of
plastic coating on the bottom foot of so of the doors and fenders.
The stuff really worked.

At that time I had nearly a mile and a half of gravel road going into
town. It was gravel right up to the village limits.

Of course that is the same town where my 40 acre field (on which I
used to land the Piper Colt) was within the city limits.

One of the guys who lived about 15 miles out actually brought his
equipment up and mowed a strip full length of the field. He could fly
up to the field and walk the rest of the was faster than he could
drive it. Of course that didn't work if he needed to carry a lot.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
"out-of-towners" by the beaters they drive into town. I'm sure they don't
see much point in buying an expensive car when you basically trash it
without ever leaving your property. (Of course, crushing rural poverty has
something to do with this, too...)

On 22 Dec 2004 06:00:54 -0800, "Denny" wrote:

Matt, stepping up to an all weather turboprop aircraft is a whole new
world... Until you have a year or two of flying one on a gotta-be-there
schedule, you need someone in the cockpit who's major skill set is
pushing aluminum from point A to point B in any weather, not building
houses in any weather...
No, the hired pilot doesn't 'have' to be ATP rated but he/she needs to
be commercial, CFII, with real world experience - military flying, or
bush pilot time, air taxi time, UPS, etc... This will help you
tremendously in the cost of insurance which is going to be a big ticket
item if you are the named pilot and just moving into turbine aircraft -
having a propilot with turbine experience as the named pilot initially
will save you money up front and get you (almost) free instruction time
until you can satisfy the insurance minimum turbine time requirement...
Look in Trade-A-Plane for guys wanting a job... There are folks with
both technical education and turbine time looking for work...
Monster.com is a resource also.. While I suggested a full time
employee who is available on demand, there are folks who will work just
for the flying, also...

I've been doing research into buying a plane. I have about 300 hours
and have considered everything from a T182RG to a T210 to making the
jump straight into a 400-series Cessna. I talked to a guy who has a
421, and the insurance company wanted him to pay $30,000/yr for his
first year, PLUS (something like) 200 hours DUAL!

If for no other reason than the insurance cost, you could hire a guy
full time to be instructor/SIC, and the difference in insurance cost
would probably pay for the salary. You'd also have an experienced
person teaching you while you build time.
John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

On 20-Dec-2004, A Lieberman wrote:

My A&P took a look, sure enough, said I have never seen anything like
this. The Sundowner doesn't have any access panels to the fuel tanks!
Everything is riveted tight as a drum. So.... now do I have a leaky fuel
tank, or do
I have a fuel line problem.

I don't know squat about Sundowners, but I'm wondering how it could be that
here are NO access/inspection holes on the wings. Certainly, there has to
be access to the wing attach bolts. Also, how does the fuel line get
connected after a wing is installed if there are no access points?

I've seen some remarkable snorkeling periscope tools that allow one to
"peek" around corners inside a wing when the inspection hole isn't where the
problem it.

Have you considered that Beech technical support might be able to help on
this problem?

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

--
-Elliott Drucker

I have access to a 20 ft fiberoptic borescope. I'm here in San Diego.
Wouldn't mind playing with it as long as we don't break it. I could never
afford to replace it...


wrote in message
news:YUNyd.5511$h.2950@trnddc04...

On 20-Dec-2004, A Lieberman wrote:

My A&P took a look, sure enough, said I have never seen anything like
this. The Sundowner doesn't have any access panels to the fuel tanks!
Everything is riveted tight as a drum. So.... now do I have a leaky
fuel
tank, or do
I have a fuel line problem.

I don't know squat about Sundowners, but I'm wondering how it could be
that
here are NO access/inspection holes on the wings. Certainly, there has to
be access to the wing attach bolts. Also, how does the fuel line get
connected after a wing is installed if there are no access points?

I've seen some remarkable snorkeling periscope tools that allow one to
"peek" around corners inside a wing when the inspection hole isn't where
the
problem it.

Have you considered that Beech technical support might be able to help on
this problem?

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

--
-Elliott Drucker