Learning from an owner annual

For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you compensate the
mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of misc parts
(screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee? Do you just make
sure to put something extra in his hourly fee for the work he did? Its
amazing to me how generous A&Ps are to open their tool box to pilots.
In the automotive maintenance world, if you touch a mechanic's tools
you'll probably get hit upside the head. Loaning out tools is almost
unheard of with cars.

-Robert

Good maintenance takes time and time equals money. There is
too much poor maintenance, sometimes because the aircraft
owner just doesn't have the money to do the work and
sometimes because the shop, trying to keep cost down cuts
corners.

Well you can't get more expensive than the factory service centers I'd
been using. I no longer believe in the top dollar = good maintenance
anymore. When you're paying $105/hr for a $12/hr kid to replace your
access panels and he installs the antennas all backwards, you figure
money doens't necessarily equal good work.

-Robert

I agree that there is no better way to learn about your airplane than
watching the annual inspection take place. That said, one of the more
important things I learned from last years (first annual) on 43H was
that I expected the owner-assisted part of the annual to save me some
money. It didn't. I took a week off work to "help" out the A & P at our
home field do the annual.

I removed all of the inspection covers, and on a Mooney I believe I
counted almost 150,000 screws (exaggerated for the effect). I cleaned
them up and got them ready for re-installation. I also removed and
cleaned up the interior. I cleaned and repacked all the wheel bearings.
I then replaced all of the parts that I removed. I also did whatever
grunt work that the A & P asked. I tell you what after every day I was
tired!! I am definitely not used to manual labor anymore, after working
in a office environment for the last 15 years.

When we got the bill of a little over 9 AMU's I asked the shop manager
how much we saved by me doing the grunt work and he said "You saved the
maximum amount that you could have, $200) I was at a loss for words!! I
know that I am not an A & P but I do have a schooling in and a
mechanical background (in car and diesel truck repair) and I brought my
own tools. Yea I probably got in the way a few times and asked too may
questions but for 35-40 hours work on my part to save $200 bucks was not
worth it.

I realize that I should have asked up front how much I could save by
helping out and this would have managed my expectations better but to
work as many hours as I did to save what amounts to 3 hours of labor off
my bill was ridiculous.

This year we are doing things differently and going with a different
shop. I'm not taking a week off work but I will stop by daily to see how
things are going. After it is over I'll then be able to judge which
annual routine (assisted or non-assisted) works better for us.

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443J @ TYQ


Jim Burns wrote:
Our first annual on the Aztec was last June, this year's is coming up and I
can guarantee you that there will be plenty of things done before we get it
in the shop. Right now I'm about 20 hours into replacing the brake linings
and repacking the wheel bearings. Some of the extra things that we do will
also have to be done at annual, but many of them become simple inspections
rather than tear down and replacements.

Last year the shop labor for the annual we paid for amounted to 39 hours,
most of this was to install a new windshield, not really a repair or part of
the annual, just a handy time to do it. My partners and I each put almost
twice as many hours into the annual. We worked from dawn to dusk for 6 days
straight. Granted, it took the "amateurs" a lot longer to do many of the
tasks, but it was well worth the effort.

Total cost of our annual last year was $2400. This year I hope it's even
less. Without our time, effort, and on going maintenance it would have
easily have been over $8000.

Once you loose the apprehension about wrenching on your own airplane,
you'll quickly learn volumes about it. I'd highly recommend buying copies
of the parts and maintenance manuals. Mine have their own dedicated table
in my house and lay open 24/7. Talk to your A&P about preventative
maintenance and working under his supervision. You'll save a ton of $$ and
get a very rewarding education along the way.

Jim

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner assisted
annual. Most of my previous annuals have been done by factory service
centers. I'm quite a good wrench around cars so this experience is
mostly about me learning the standards & practices of aircraft work.
I'm amazed by a couple things...
1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
have done at previous annuals.
2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).
3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go too quick
either.

Its also interesting to me how many things are safety wired while other
things (that seem more important) are not. Brake calapers are safety
wired but fuel lines are not, etc. Its quite depressing to see my plane
in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.

I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
comfortable with a wrench.

-Robert

In article .com,
Jay Honeck wrote:

I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.

Can you replace them with Torx screws? I have found that they are much
more resistant to striping that phillips head screws. I use them a lot
on cars transmissions...



--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.

What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
peeve about doing an annual.


That's why you have all those little cloth "tea" bags, with paper tags and
tie strings, to tie the screws/parts etc to the nearest screw hole, they are
not left lying on the floor in bins to tip over.

BT

For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you compensate the
mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of misc parts
(screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee?

I usually end up buying a dozen or so screws, fasteners, cotter pins,
etc, that I manage to strip/break/lose.

I don't pay my guy anything for "tool rental" -- but I did give him and
his wife a night in a hot tub suite for helping me so many times...

:-)

Loaning out tools is almost
unheard of with cars.

I used to have an auto mechanic that I could work with like that, but
he "sold out" and went to work for a dealership as their parts manager.
Now, I can't even SEE my car/truck/van when it's being repaired...

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hey, there's a hell of a way to spend a Saturday afterno ... oh WRENCH.
Damn.

Jim



I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
comfortable with a wrench.

wrote:

Dude, you really need to take a good look at the underside of a
Mooney, especially an older one. You just "think" a PA28 has a lot of
screws. Unless things have changed a whole bunch, they are mostly
countersunk machine screws, opposed to your universal head PK screws.

Really ups the temptation for a tech/owner to use power tools to crank
the **** out them when closing up. Makes me shudder just thinking
about it..


I have no problem using power tools to do that, you just need to use the
right ones and use them the right way. Every quality power screwdriver
I have ever used has an adjustable torque limiter, this will make sure
they don't get put in too tight.


--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
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from anywhere, for any occasion!
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Jack it up, you've got to get it up anyway to cycle the gear
and check the tires properly. Securely raised high enough
for a creeper seat and it is easier to work on.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
| That will work too. One thing to avoid is taking a cover
| plate off and leaving it swung aside and fastened with
one
| screw.
|
| I don't think that can happen on a Mooney. The access
panels are inches
| off the ground. There almost was not enough room for both
me and the
| drill to work under the plane at the same time.
|

When I was a teenager I worked in a sporting goods store.
Part of my job was cleaning and repairing fishing reels and
guns. Our price list was [back in the late 60s]
Disassemble, clean. inspect and reassemble $10.00
Let you watch, $15
Clean, inspect and reassemble the parts you bring in $20
Listen to the story about how your kid took it apart.
priceless or $30


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
| For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you
compensate the
| mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of
misc parts
| (screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee? Do
you just make
| sure to put something extra in his hourly fee for the work
he did? Its
| amazing to me how generous A&Ps are to open their tool box
to pilots.
| In the automotive maintenance world, if you touch a
mechanic's tools
| you'll probably get hit upside the head. Loaning out tools
is almost
| unheard of with cars.
|
| -Robert
|