FAA Small AIrcraft Directorate Position on Experimental AirworthinessCertificates

On Jun 16, 1:43*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
This sounds scary for us that have not flown in a contest for 15
years.
Fred TX-

This is obviously a dastardly plot by the SRA to force all the owners
of nice, new, shiny racing gliders to show up at races and compete,
thereby injecting new life in the (soon to be) growing sport of glider
racing! *A Red Bull sponsorship, along with a TV show on ESPN (and hot
chicks in bikinis) is sure to follow....

For those who still insist on not showing up at contests, just list
all the SSA and local contest dates on your program letter, filling in
any blank dates with whatever badge legs you still need, and finally
declaring a random OLC task as a backup on any remaining free days.
Remember to keep a day free every other year for your flight review,
then update the list daily (based on the latest wx forecast and size
of the Gulf Oil Spill) to your friendly neighborhood FSDO, who will be
ecstatic at your level of compliance - promotion for sure!

Or, if any of you proud owners of a nice new ASG-29 or LS-10 don't
feel up to keeping your paperwork straight with the Feds, I'll be
happy to trade you my nice pre-moratorium 3-diamond LS6, which still
does not need a full time secretary to stay legal and in which you can
still fly for fun...

This sure makes me proud to be an American - home of the best
bureaucracy money can buy!

Kirk
66
"Racing to Fly, Flying to Race"

If clubs organized weekly races around a small triangle, O&R, etc. and
if the SSA would sanction all club races, and if all owners listed all
SSA sanctioned races the problem would be virtually solved. All
glider pilots should join a club.

On Jun 16, 11:55*am, Nyal Williams wrote:

If clubs organized weekly races around a small triangle, O&R, etc. and
if the SSA would sanction all club races, and if all owners listed all
SSA sanctioned races the problem would be virtually solved. *All
glider pilots should join a club.

I don't think any of that is required. Just buy the cheapest logger
acceptable to OLC and submit a log for every flight you make. OLC is
a contest and every flight is either an entry in that contest or
practice for that contest.

This solution has motivated at least one local pilot to buy a logger.

Andy

On Jun 16, 12:55*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
On Jun 16, 1:43*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:



This sounds scary for us that have not flown in a contest for 15
years.
Fred TX-

This is obviously a dastardly plot by the SRA to force all the owners
of nice, new, shiny racing gliders to show up at races and compete,
thereby injecting new life in the (soon to be) growing sport of glider
racing! *A Red Bull sponsorship, along with a TV show on ESPN (and hot
chicks in bikinis) is sure to follow....

For those who still insist on not showing up at contests, just list
all the SSA and local contest dates on your program letter, filling in
any blank dates with whatever badge legs you still need, and finally
declaring a random OLC task as a backup on any remaining free days.
Remember to keep a day free every other year for your flight review,
then update the list daily (based on the latest wx forecast and size
of the Gulf Oil Spill) to your friendly neighborhood FSDO, who will be
ecstatic at your level of compliance - promotion for sure!

Or, if any of you proud owners of a nice new ASG-29 or LS-10 don't
feel up to keeping your paperwork straight with the Feds, I'll be
happy to trade you my nice pre-moratorium 3-diamond LS6, which still
does not need a full time secretary to stay legal and in which you can
still fly for fun...

This sure makes me proud to be an American - home of the best
bureaucracy money can buy!

Kirk
66
"Racing to Fly, Flying to Race"

If clubs organized weekly races around a small triangle, O&R, etc. and
if the SSA would sanction all club races, and if all owners listed all
SSA sanctioned races the problem would be virtually solved. *All
glider pilots should join a club.

Unfortunately, premises liability insurance is not in effect during
air meets, thus event insurance is required (perhaps this could be
negotiated). FAI and SSA do make awards on OLC performances, as does
this SSA state governor. I'm not sure internal club racing is an
issue, but sanctions do raise the question.

Sanction fees (if any) could perhaps apply to your 2010 racing series
and it would get a discount on your event insurance, if they would
accept your proposal. Have to look at the details.

Nice idea, but we haven't hosted the Rocky Mountain Soaring Contest
since we discovered this as it was attended by pilots from several
locations. The cost of the additional fees could be charged to the
competing pilots. With enough participation, it could be about the
cost of an aerotow.

Frank Whiteley

On Jun 16, 1:18*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jun 16, 12:55*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:



On Jun 16, 1:43*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:

This sounds scary for us that have not flown in a contest for 15
years.
Fred TX-

This is obviously a dastardly plot by the SRA to force all the owners
of nice, new, shiny racing gliders to show up at races and compete,
thereby injecting new life in the (soon to be) growing sport of glider
racing! *A Red Bull sponsorship, along with a TV show on ESPN (and hot
chicks in bikinis) is sure to follow....

For those who still insist on not showing up at contests, just list
all the SSA and local contest dates on your program letter, filling in
any blank dates with whatever badge legs you still need, and finally
declaring a random OLC task as a backup on any remaining free days.
Remember to keep a day free every other year for your flight review,
then update the list daily (based on the latest wx forecast and size
of the Gulf Oil Spill) to your friendly neighborhood FSDO, who will be
ecstatic at your level of compliance - promotion for sure!

Or, if any of you proud owners of a nice new ASG-29 or LS-10 don't
feel up to keeping your paperwork straight with the Feds, I'll be
happy to trade you my nice pre-moratorium 3-diamond LS6, which still
does not need a full time secretary to stay legal and in which you can
still fly for fun...

This sure makes me proud to be an American - home of the best
bureaucracy money can buy!

Kirk
66
"Racing to Fly, Flying to Race"

If clubs organized weekly races around a small triangle, O&R, etc. and
if the SSA would sanction all club races, and if all owners listed all
SSA sanctioned races the problem would be virtually solved. *All
glider pilots should join a club.

Unfortunately, premises liability insurance is not in effect during
air meets, thus event insurance is required (perhaps this could be
negotiated). *FAI and SSA do make awards on OLC *performances, as does
this SSA state governor. *I'm not sure internal club racing is an
issue, but sanctions do raise the question.

Sanction fees (if any) could perhaps apply to your 2010 racing series
and it would get a discount on your event insurance, if they would
accept your proposal. *Have to look at the details.

Nice idea, but we haven't hosted the Rocky Mountain Soaring Contest
since we discovered this as it was attended by pilots from several
locations. *The cost of the additional fees could be charged to the
competing pilots. *With enough participation, it could be about the
cost of an aerotow.

Frank Whiteley

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/awards.htm

There are about as many "interpretations" of the written regulations
as there are FAA staff.

Its very frustrating and confusing for us mere mortals to know what
applies to our own circumstances..

I just went through a revision of my Special Airworthiness Cert,
because when I bought the plane it was Experimental - Exhibition but
my operating limits where not the same date as the Certificate(Lost
the correct copy) so to be legal I needed to revise/update my
paperwork.

Apparently that just because you filled in the paperwork and a DAR
sent it to KS does not mean that he properly requested it to appear in
the FAA archives.

My several hard copy Special Airwothiness Cetificates had not been in
the FAA records for many years even though I had a hard copy
certificate in my hands(Without matching OPs Limits unfortunately).

In reapplying for a new Special Airworthyness Certificate It was a
surprisingly painless process with the FSDO rep coming out to look
over the subject and together we negotiated the Operating Limits to
our mutual satisfaction, PLUS I added the Air Racing to the Cert. and
now have Experimental - Exhibition/Air Racing

So now when I'm not at a contest or practising racing, then Im
practising for exhibiting(Aerobatics) or exhibiting my aircraft.

Since Im supposed to fly over sparsely populated areas, my exhibitions
are likely to gophers ;-) but I'm not required to list names.

There are no geographical limitations unless I take it to Phase 1
flight testing for 5 hours due to a major modification.

I beleive that Neil's case is probably a "Special" one where there
must be some extenuating circumstances that we don't understand, and
hence the
resistance from the FAA in helping him get AW Certicate.

Or he could be dealing with someone who does not interpret like some
others and probably needs to go elsewhere to get a satisfactory
resolution.

Elevating it to a highly visisble case was probably counter productive
as taking to someone else for another interpretation would have been
easier before.


On Jun 15, 7:17*pm, NG wrote:
I spoke with the head of the FAA Small Aircraft Directorate for
gliders yesterday regarding Experimental Airworthiness Certificates
for gliders. *In at least several states and particularly Arizona all
gliders are having their Experimental Airworthiness certificates
reviewed. *Due to an issue causing my DG505 to have its Standard
Airworthiness certificate recently revoked, which I further lost on
Federal appeal in front of the NTSB (see my posting June 8th 2010),
due to bad paperwork supplied by AMS Flight, d.o.o., I was caused to
engage the FAA in this dialogue.

I was informed by the head of the FAA Small Aircraft Directorate for
gliders that he recently had conversations with his supervisors in
Washington, D.C. and that in order to obtain or retain an Experimental
Airworthiness certificate the glider must be engaged in "racing" and
"preparation for racing". *He said an agenda of racing events must be
supplied to the FAA at the local FSDO level at the time of issuance or
revision of paperwork. *I was told that the Experimental Airworthiness
Certificate was NOT meant to be used for "fun flying".

I asked if badge flying would be considered as a type of racing. *He
said that one could attempt to engage the local FSDO with this to see
if in their judgement it would be valid, but he would not commit one
way or the other. *Having recently engaged the FAA in federal court I
have found that they can be a bit of a sticky wicket. *You may want to
look at the code on the definition of Experimental Certification if
you plan on obtaining or maintaining this type of certification. *An
electronic version of the code is easily reached online.

Neil AZ

On Jun 16, 3:18*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jun 16, 12:55*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:



On Jun 16, 1:43*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:

This sounds scary for us that have not flown in a contest for 15
years.
Fred TX-

This is obviously a dastardly plot by the SRA to force all the owners
of nice, new, shiny racing gliders to show up at races and compete,
thereby injecting new life in the (soon to be) growing sport of glider
racing! *A Red Bull sponsorship, along with a TV show on ESPN (and hot
chicks in bikinis) is sure to follow....

For those who still insist on not showing up at contests, just list
all the SSA and local contest dates on your program letter, filling in
any blank dates with whatever badge legs you still need, and finally
declaring a random OLC task as a backup on any remaining free days.
Remember to keep a day free every other year for your flight review,
then update the list daily (based on the latest wx forecast and size
of the Gulf Oil Spill) to your friendly neighborhood FSDO, who will be
ecstatic at your level of compliance - promotion for sure!

Or, if any of you proud owners of a nice new ASG-29 or LS-10 don't
feel up to keeping your paperwork straight with the Feds, I'll be
happy to trade you my nice pre-moratorium 3-diamond LS6, which still
does not need a full time secretary to stay legal and in which you can
still fly for fun...

This sure makes me proud to be an American - home of the best
bureaucracy money can buy!

Kirk
66
"Racing to Fly, Flying to Race"

If clubs organized weekly races around a small triangle, O&R, etc. and
if the SSA would sanction all club races, and if all owners listed all
SSA sanctioned races the problem would be virtually solved. *All
glider pilots should join a club.

Unfortunately, premises liability insurance is not in effect during
air meets, thus event insurance is required (perhaps this could be
negotiated). *FAI and SSA do make awards on OLC *performances, as does
this SSA state governor. *I'm not sure internal club racing is an
issue, but sanctions do raise the question.

Sanction fees (if any) could perhaps apply to your 2010 racing series
and it would get a discount on your event insurance, if they would
accept your proposal. *Have to look at the details.

Nice idea, but we haven't hosted the Rocky Mountain Soaring Contest
since we discovered this as it was attended by pilots from several
locations. *The cost of the additional fees could be charged to the
competing pilots. *With enough participation, it could be about the
cost of an aerotow.

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

If I remember the reg correctly, it did not suggest who sanctions such
events. What is a legal sanction? Is it a bond or does it require
insurance? Is a sanction, in fact, a requirement? How does this work
for OLC races?