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Thinking about buying a DG400



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 28th 17, 04:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bret Hess
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Posts: 121
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

No lifetime limit on the PIK20E. From 2011:

Dear sir,
There is no life limit for an airframe of PIK-20E. However, there is a standard inspection procedure, AIR T6-1, for aging sailplanes which shall be carried out after 3000hrs and every next 1000hrs.
The AIR T6-1 is published in Finnish Civil Aviation authority circular advisory (http://www.ilmailuhallinto.fi/files/...t/ait6_1e.pdf). The special inspection procedure can be found from chapter 5.
Kind regards,

Vesa Räisänen
Technical Trainee
Finnish Transport Safety Agency
Kumpulantie 9, P.O.Box 320, FI-00101 Helsinki
tel. +358 (0)20 618 500
e-mail:
internet:
http://www.trafi.fi


On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 4:59:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Third and last point. I´ve also been thinking about buying a PIK20E. I´ve seen one with 1500H and 147 engine hours. It is cheapper than the DG400 but the drawback is that it has a 3000h limit which cannot be extended because the manufacturer no longer exist.


  #12  
Old May 28th 17, 06:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

You first need to find a local mechanic familiar with the engine and
glider.

  #13  
Old May 28th 17, 07:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bret Hess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 121
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

I suggest you join (for the moment) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/pik20/info, and ask European members what it's like to find engine support in Europe. Not all that fly PIK20Es or DG400s are mechanically inclined.

I made the transition to the PIK20E at 110 hrs, and it was my first single place glider.
  #14  
Old May 28th 17, 07:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?


YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?


YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.


NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)


I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.
  #15  
Old May 30th 17, 04:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?


YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?


YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.


NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)


I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.


There is a big difference between "disqualification" and "inadvisable." Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds of hours to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet another set of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under stress and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands: Alfonso should get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500 hours in it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would be if he does not have tows available.

Tom
  #16  
Old May 30th 17, 06:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:14 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)


I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.


There is a big difference between "disqualification" and "inadvisable." Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds of hours to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet another set of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under stress and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands: Alfonso should get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500 hours in it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would be if he does not have tows available.

Tom


The test of skills for the motor only comes when you use the motor. That is my point. An auxilliary motorglider with the motor folded is a pure glider. This may require discipline that the pilot may not have - that is my other point.
  #17  
Old May 30th 17, 01:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

Here is a video I did for a friend looking to buy one recently, if it helps: https://youtu.be/YJbE1urv4Mg
  #18  
Old May 31st 17, 05:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 10:49:47 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:14 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)

I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.


There is a big difference between "disqualification" and "inadvisable." Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds of hours to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet another set of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under stress and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands: Alfonso should get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500 hours in it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would be if he does not have tows available.

Tom


The test of skills for the motor only comes when you use the motor. That is my point. An auxilliary motorglider with the motor folded is a pure glider. This may require discipline that the pilot may not have - that is my other point.


You can always buy a MG and not use the motor, flying it as a pure glider. This would be curious choice and a huge waste of money. My comment as "inadvisable" stands and you didn't address it. Advisability is a judgment by an expert, disqualification is a ruling by a bureaucrat.

Tom
  #19  
Old May 31st 17, 08:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Short
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

Would you have the same concers if it was an electric self launcher
or sustainer?

Chris

At 04:45 31 May 2017, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 10:49:47 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:14 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch

wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave

Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4,


wrot=
e:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my

experience in
pu=
re
sailplanes is very little (don=C2=B4t reach 100h). Do

you
recomme=
nd me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before

making the
=
transition?
=20
YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and

especially
whe=
n things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely

automatic.
Regardle=
ss of
power experience, you are not at this point with less

than 100
hour=
s.
=20
Second point, I=C2=B4m not very handy, I

don=C2=B4t have any
type=
of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would

have to go to
a=
workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?
=20
YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience

maintaining the
t=
ype
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be

anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not

intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.
=20
This problem would happen to me with any type of

glider that I
bu=
y.
=20
NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more

specialized)
main=
tenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.
=20
Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs

in
motor-glid=
ers)
=20
I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you

from
motor=
glider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be

very
cons=
ervative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air

starts at
l=
ess than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it

will
fly=
fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can

push this
e=
nvelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If

you are an
un=
disciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you

are not
a=
good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If

fact
you=
might want to reevaluate flying at all.=20
=20
I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any

motorglider are
=
3x any pure glider.
=20
There is a big difference between "disqualification" and

"inadvisable."=
Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds

of
hours=
to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet

another
set=
of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under
stres=
s and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands:

Alfonso
shoul=
d get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500

hours in
=
it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would

be if he
=
does not have tows available.
=20
Tom

=20
The test of skills for the motor only comes when you use the

motor. That
=
is my point. An auxilliary motorglider with the motor folded is a

pure
gli=
der. This may require discipline that the pilot may not have - that

is my
o=
ther point.

You can always buy a MG and not use the motor, flying it as a

pure glider.
=
This would be curious choice and a huge waste of money. My

comment as
"inad=
visable" stands and you didn't address it. Advisability is a

judgment by
an=
expert, disqualification is a ruling by a bureaucrat.

Tom


  #20  
Old May 31st 17, 12:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,610
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-4, Chris Short wrote:
Would you have the same concers if it was an electric self launcher
or sustainer?


Yes.
 




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