Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?

In article writes:

Michael,

I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
Gliders.

I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
possible. You can see why this is important if you look at what can
happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
ground too long.

In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
still being =93pushed=94 into the ground by the elevator. The glider can
then lift it=92s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it=92s
angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
on the ground. The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
into the air and climb rapidly. This could pull the tail of the tow
plane up, driving it=92s nose into the ground. Or, as the glider lifts
off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
induced oscillation.

With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
to generate sufficient lift. If the stick is then moved back to lift
the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
problems just described.

And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. A bump to the tail
wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. A bump to the
nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. If you hit a
bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
angle of attack.

So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

Russell Holtz

Gee, and Charlie had me holding it forward of neutral in the 2-32,
sort of the opposite of "well aft".

Alan

At 07:11 06 May 2009, Surfer! wrote:
In message
,
writes


So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

This is not the advice I was trained to in the UK. For an aerotow we
always start with the stick right back, and easy it forwards as the tug
accelerates. This we do with both taildraggers (the average
single-seater) and gliders like the K21 and DG500/505 that rest on the
nose wheel once the crew is in. The runway is usually grass.

For a winch launch we start with a neutral stick as acceleration to
flying is usually very fast, and it's vital that the early part of the
flight and the rotation are well-controlled.

Ask your instructor to run through it again next time you fly - IMHO
that's much safer than taking advice from anonymous strangers and
possibly finding it's not what your instructor wants you doing.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net



Just out of interest, what is the reason given for holding the stick back
and gradually easing forwards for all gliders? i can understand for a
'nose dragger' (for want of a better term) especially on grass to avoid
damage to the nose wheel. I would always be inclined to adopt the
technique as described in the previous posting.

matt

Mike the Strike wrote:

The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
method of tow and weather conditions.


Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
since. YMMV.

Tony V

If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.

(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
fingers.)

At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:

The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
method of tow and weather conditions.


Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
since. YMMV.

Tony V

On May 6, 7:45*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
lift off? *The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.

(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
fingers.)

At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:

Mike the Strike wrote:

The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
method of tow and weather conditions.

Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
since. YMMV.

Tony V



Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not
an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and
locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting,
left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to
throttle, left hand scratching head, ...

---

So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking
for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the
advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship,
pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these
questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight
training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle
commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have
a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things
then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when
something goes horribly wrong.

And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as
you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an
early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up
and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training.

At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of
detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple
only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not
getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If
that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these
things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you
with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those
details now.

Darryl

On May 6, 12:47*am, (Alan) wrote:
In article writes:



Michael,

I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
Gliders.

I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
possible. *You can see why this is important if you look at what can
happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
ground too long.

In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
still being =93pushed=94 into the ground by the elevator. *The glider can
then lift it=92s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it=92s
angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
on the ground. *The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
into the air and climb rapidly. * This could pull the tail of the tow
plane up, driving it=92s nose into the ground. * Or, as the glider lifts
off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
induced oscillation.

With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
to generate sufficient lift. * If the stick is then moved back to lift
the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
problems just described.

And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. * A bump to the tail
wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. *A bump to the
nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. *If you hit a
bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
angle of attack.

So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. * To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

Russell Holtz

* Gee, and Charlie had me holding it forward of neutral in the 2-32,
sort of the opposite of "well aft".

* * * * Alan

Alan

You are comparing Russel's useful generalization and one good
instructors' specific advice. If we could just read a book or ras and
know everything we would not need those annoying flight instructors.

Maybe Charlie was predisposed to baby the fragile tail wheel on a
2-32, or even if your 2-32 had a pneumatic wheel mod maybe he wanted
to encourage babying the 2-32 tail wheel in general. Maybe he felt you
were holding on too much back pressure (even without realizing it,
e.g. causing an unexpected balloon up behind the tow plane) and was
trying to help cure you of that. Or maybe one of several other
reasons. Ask Charlie to explain the difference in his advice to the
generalization in the textbook.

Darryl

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On May 6, 7:45 pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a
certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all.

(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
fingers.)

At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote:

Mike the Strike wrote:

The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location,
method of tow and weather conditions.

Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is
generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I
used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but
found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago,
as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the
tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed
caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of
ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever
since. YMMV.

Tony V



Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not
an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and
locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting,
left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to
throttle, left hand scratching head, ...

---

So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking
for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the
advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship,
pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these
questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight
training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle
commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have
a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things
then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when
something goes horribly wrong.

And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as
you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an
early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up
and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training.

At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of
detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple
only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not
getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If
that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these
things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you
with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those
details now.

Darryl


Michael:

I'll just add one thing to all this excellent advice. Work to understand how
and why.
Buy a copy of the classic--"Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche and
read it thouroughly at least once a year.
Discuss what you learn from it with your instructor and have the instructor
point out how that information applies to your situation--
Your Field, your towplane, your glider, as these are important variables
that change the answer.

Good flying to you
Hartley Falbaum

At 02:45 07 May 2009, Nyal Williams wrote:

(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two
fingers.)

That's sort of the answer I was going to suggest. Remember all the jokes
about that subject in the movie "Dawn Flight"?

Jim Beckman