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Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 6th 09, 03:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 9
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

On May 5, 8:39*am, vic20owner wrote:
No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
are associated with buying a used glider.

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
is major (wing struts, etc)?

Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?

Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Thanks
-tom



Tom,
You've read some sound wisdom here. There are a lot of opinions out
there, and some you can take with a grain of salt. The best way to
find the glider for you is to ask questions. You will quickly find
that there are pilots, and then there are armchair pilots. I've found
that when it comes to certain biases about planes, it is generally
they that have never flown one that have the greatest biases. For
example. I was told never to buy a plane with a flying stab..."Too
sensitive", they said. Or, a glider without spoilers is too hard to
land. It's all bunk. It is just a matter of being prepared for the
plane you want to buy. Certainly I wouldn't advise that you to buy a
high aspect ratio super ship with flaps as your first plane. But there
is nothing wrong with getting a little performance for you to grow
into.

I'm sure your instructor would be happy to offer advice on your first
plane. From my very first flight, my instructor knew that I was going
to buy a plane and we talked constantly about it. I considered myself
to be an average student, and I went from a 2-33 to a Grob 103, then
right to a Pik-20. There was a steep learning curve for the Pik-20
becasue I had to book learn it then fly it, as there are no trainers
like it. I adapted, learned and survived. I'm now having the time of
my life!

When shopping for a plane I would also ask to see a current weight and
balance sheet. I got stung on a purchase by just asking whart the max
pilot weight was. The owner told me a number, but after the purchase I
found out that he quoted what was in the POH. After a weight and
balance was done I was shocked to find out that it actually was 35
pounds less than what he said. After adding a parachute I was already
overweight. I sold the plane and became a smarter shopper.

I'm sure you will make a smart purchase that you will enjoy for many
years.

Warren Evans
  #12  
Old May 6th 09, 03:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
vic20owner
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Posts: 40
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...


Thanks everyone for the very detailed replies. I have to admit I am
surprised at just how helpful the member of this list are to
beginners. I would prefer a 2 seater so I can fly with
friends,family, or other fellow pilots. At the moment (this may
change with experience) I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
quite a bit.

-tom




  #13  
Old May 6th 09, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
rlovinggood
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Posts: 268
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

I'll reiterate what others have said about the value of a GOOD
trailer. Doesn't matter if the trailer is factory built or
homebuilt. What matters is how it works. How it works at holding the
precious cargo safely. How it works at making rigging and de-rigging
easy. How it works at protecting the glider from the elements. How
it works in towing stability and providing adequate space for "stuff"
like wheel chocks, wash bucket, towout gear, wing stand, tail dolly,
etc.

If the trailer is a knuckle-buster, the soaring experience will NOT BE
FUN.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
  #14  
Old May 6th 09, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Pawnee Pilot
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Posts: 5
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

In additon to all the wise words already posted, make absolutely sure
it has a recent weight and balance, and check carefully what the
minimum and maximum pilot weights are.
Some gliders have a very limited range
  #15  
Old May 6th 09, 08:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surfer!
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Posts: 81
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

In message , Paul Goulding
writes
snip

Buy a glider that is popular with glider pilots ASW19b , cirrus, etc
My advise would be a GROB ASTIR CS .. good handling .. indestructable Gel
coat, most have original 1977 gel. Roomy cockpit and good performance.


The concrete swan. Watch people develop bad backs & hernias when you
want help rigging it, unless you have one of those one-man rig devices
that take most of the weight!
Snip
--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
  #16  
Old May 6th 09, 09:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surfer!
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Posts: 81
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

In message
,
vic20owner writes

Thanks everyone for the very detailed replies. I have to admit I am
surprised at just how helpful the member of this list are to
beginners. I would prefer a 2 seater so I can fly with
friends,family, or other fellow pilots. At the moment (this may
change with experience) I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
quite a bit.


When you learnt to drive, did you go out and buy a car like the one you
learnt in? Would you still enjoy driving the type of car you learnt on?
Do you still do the same type of driving you did when you learnt? When
I went solo just under 3 years ago I had barely been out of glide range
of the club. Then I started getting more adventurous and found the
performance limitations of the basic 1-seat gliders we have, so I got my
own bit of glass and am having a ball doing XC flying when conditions
permit.

I'd suggest you try as many different gliders as you can during the next
year before deciding to look for something. Try to have a go with some
more modern types including glass gliders - the Blanik you are flying is
basically a 50-year old design, updated a bit.

And think very hard if it's really appropriate to have a 2-seat glider
to give an occasional joy-ride. It will cost more to insure and
maintain, and be harder to rig. Wanting to do some flying with friends
is fine, but most of the folks I know use the club gliders for that.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
  #17  
Old May 6th 09, 01:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

On May 5, 10:39*am, vic20owner wrote:
No, I am not planning to buy anything for at least a year ... but I
have often wondered what other "hidden" expenses or obstacles there
are associated with buying a used glider.

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). * BUT, for future reference, what inspections
are required for the glider to be considered air worthy, and what else
should I know before considering such a purchase aside from obvious
structural damage or electrical problems? *How much damage should I
consider "normal wear and tear" such as delaminating wing tips, bent
rudder, etc which is a relatively easy repair versus something which
is major (wing struts, etc)?

Also, is there any specific paperwork (flight hours, maintenance
records, etc) I should insist on seeing, etc. *Is it common to pay
someone else to inspect the aircraft prior to purchase?

Lastly, are there any specific gliders one should avoid as a first
used glider? (such as homebuilt kit planes, etc)?

Thanks
-tom


You can write books regarding this. One man's dream is another's
nightmare. I love to hear things like "concrete swan", etc.

I own an Astir CS and it is no less problem or weight to rig than a
K6, a Standard Cirrus, etc. It is a fantastic ship, you simply have
to kn ow how to rig it rather than muscling it about mindlessly.

This is the internet. Heed and read what you will from this venue but
PLEASE base your purchase on reading books (Piggot, Wander, etc) and
on the advice of fliers you know.

You can get into a first gen glass ship at your price if you look
around quite a bit and you don't mind a ship with aesthetic flaws
(chips, gel craze to an extent, etc). All superficial, at least
should be. Do a thorough investigation of the AD's. The Astir CS,
77, II, III etc are ALL going to have to have the wing spar spiggot AD
done soon by mandate of the FAA. This isn't hype or conjecture now,
its fact. The AD can run in the 4 thousand USD range to complete.

I bought mine from the UK with this particular AD already done. This
wasn't by luck, it was through research. My ship is in fine
mechanical condition, flies like a dream and goes together as easily
as most. Work smarter in rigging, not harder.

The total price including shipping to the states in geting the ship
[ here was under 12k USD. This was a steal but if you ollok and are
flexible and creative you can find a decent ship like this.

650 insurance, 250 annual. I already owned a chute, look for deals
including a chute. For anohter 400 USD I could have gotten a chute
with the deal.

Good luck and remember, dont be hasty and read! You'll hear all kinds
of opinions like flaps.no flaps, no wood/wood, no v-tail/v-tail. I
found that most of the folks who generate such opinions have never
even flown the type of ship they offer negative viewpoints regarding.
They simply restate opinions they hear.

Good luck!
  #18  
Old May 6th 09, 03:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim Beckman[_2_]
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Posts: 186
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:

I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range).


When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? If so, then you've
got a lot to choose from. If you really mean around $10K, then what are
you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? Probably old
wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
1-26.

I'm assuming this is happening in the US. The 1-26 is what it is, and it
isn't for everybody. Surely you've flown one by now. The advantages are
that it has a great support network, including its own one-class contests,
there are always some for sale and it's easy to sell one when you want
to.

Another consideration - you can get twice the glider for the money if you
have a partner. On the other hand, choosing the right partner is probably
even more important than choosing the right glider. On the gripping hand,
a partner is pretty much obligated to come and get you when you land out.

As others have said, insist on seeing a *recent* weight and balance.
Better yet, bring your own scales or watch while it is weighed. Gliders
never seem to get lighter as they age.

Don't buy a two-seater for your own private use. Use the club gliders or
rent one when you need one. Have you disassembled a two-seat Blanik? If
it's hard to assemble, you won't go cross-country.

(Oh, another advantage of the 1-26, as the fans like to remind everybody:
the retrieves are shorter.)

Jim Beckman

  #19  
Old May 6th 09, 03:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
TonyV[_2_]
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Posts: 47
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

vic20owner wrote:
....I am primarily interested in a Let Blanik L-23
or L-12 simply because I am flying an L-23 in my lessons and enjoy it
quite a bit.



If you have *any* desire to fly xc, do *not* buy the Blanik - unless
you're guaranteed to land out at an airport and get an aero retrieve
home :-). As the joy of flying is important, so is the joy (or lack
thereof), of rigging and derigging. Also. it's much easier to get one
helper to pull you out of that hay field than the 2 or 3 helpers that
you'd need for the Blanik.

Tony LS6-b "6N"
  #20  
Old May 6th 09, 03:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob
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Posts: 45
Default Beginner questions about buying a sailplane...

On May 6, 4:15*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 14:39 05 May 2009, vic20owner wrote:



I regularly see older planes in the $10K USD range (which is well
within my price range). *


When you say that range, do you mean 10 to 20 Kbucks? *If so, then you've
got a lot to choose from. *If you really mean around $10K, then what are
you actually seeing out there in the market for that amount? *Probably old
wooden gliders (nothing wrong with wood), the Schreder homebuilts, and the
1-26.

I'm assuming this is happening in the US. *


Even if you are in the US don't discount planes from Europe! The
shipping cost are relatively inexpensive and the number of glass ships
in the 7-10000 € (10-13000$) range is wide. Look at

http://www.segelflug.de/cgi-bin/clas...e+Clubkl asse

If you buy a German registered ship it is still in conformance i.e. no
"Experimental" registration here.

Just a thought and I am sure some will balst this advice but I
married, I can take being blasted!

Bob
 




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