REFINISHING

I called Tom Knauff yesterday and this is the summary
of our conversation:

1) He got a lot of responses to his email but nobody
committed firmly to
send his / her glider to Slovakia. Firm commitment
means in his mind to have
the money ready and be willing to take the glider to
Tom's gliderport
2) He is doing this because he wants to refinish one
of his own gliders. He
needs that glider back by early spring though. Now
it is to late for him to
send it and get it back on time, so he is going to
wait until next fall
3) The cost to refinish a standard class glider is
$7000 to $8000
4) The ideal is to ship three gliders per container.
This drives the
shipping cost down to ~$1500 per glider. More gliders
per container would
require difficult packing
5) In this Slovakia shop they can refinish either with
gelcoat or
polyurethane. He got the reference from Shremp Hirth
and apparently they
make a great job

If someone is ready to commit send me an email and
we can go back to Tom. He
sounded like he would help

Best regards

Miguel


At 21:06 25 November 2003, Bob Mowry wrote:
Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment
of gliders to
Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping)
is way better
than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked
the guys at
Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std
Cirrus: $25K,
which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price


You should contact him if you are interested (and can
be without your
glider for that period of time).

-bob

6 gliders will go into a 40' container.

Ian

"Miguel Lavalle" wrote in message
...
I called Tom Knauff yesterday and this is the summary
of our conversation:

1) He got a lot of responses to his email but nobody
committed firmly to
send his / her glider to Slovakia. Firm commitment
means in his mind to have
the money ready and be willing to take the glider to
Tom's gliderport
2) He is doing this because he wants to refinish one
of his own gliders. He
needs that glider back by early spring though. Now
it is to late for him to
send it and get it back on time, so he is going to
wait until next fall
3) The cost to refinish a standard class glider is
$7000 to $8000
4) The ideal is to ship three gliders per container.
This drives the
shipping cost down to ~$1500 per glider. More gliders
per container would
require difficult packing
5) In this Slovakia shop they can refinish either with
gelcoat or
polyurethane. He got the reference from Shremp Hirth
and apparently they
make a great job

If someone is ready to commit send me an email and
we can go back to Tom. He
sounded like he would help

Best regards

Miguel


At 21:06 25 November 2003, Bob Mowry wrote:
Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment
of gliders to
Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping)
is way better
than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked
the guys at
Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std
Cirrus: $25K,
which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price


You should contact him if you are interested (and can
be without your
glider for that period of time).

-bob

I have seen the work that is done by this company and it is very good.
The price is right and the detail work is fine.
What else do you need to know?
GA

Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!


Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
WoW!

First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
These little
negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
in Atlanta. But of
course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
in the world, right?

Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
his highly customized
ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
in February! You
can see if you like the results.

Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
that matter, smoothed or
profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
1200 and polished the
entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
Doing it 'right' is the
big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
in a couple of
years. Waste of time!

Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
Time + Knowledge = $$$$$


John Bojack 'J4'
LS-6c/18w







'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
the states right now are
by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
usually booked for the
year by the end of the soaring season so you might
not be able to get it
done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
and it looks perfect!!

Harold 'HE'

'Ventus B' wrote in message
om...
All,
I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
Casual
conversations with other pilots revealed that most
think a 'normal'
refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
with Gaines in
Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
charges $60 per
hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
if they are done
correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
more than my
purchase price!
Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
(properly) in
the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
overseas may still be
a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
now.

Paul,

What are you using for fillers.

Richard

"Paul Gaines" wrote in message
...
Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!


Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
WoW!

First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
These little
negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
in Atlanta. But of
course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
in the world, right?

Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
his highly customized
ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
in February! You
can see if you like the results.

Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
that matter, smoothed or
profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
1200 and polished the
entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
Doing it 'right' is the
big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
in a couple of
years. Waste of time!

Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
Time + Knowledge = $$$$$


John Bojack 'J4'
LS-6c/18w







'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
the states right now are
by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
usually booked for the
year by the end of the soaring season so you might
not be able to get it
done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
and it looks perfect!!

Harold 'HE'

'Ventus B' wrote in message
om...
All,
I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
Casual
conversations with other pilots revealed that most
think a 'normal'
refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
with Gaines in
Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
charges $60 per
hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
if they are done
correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
more than my
purchase price!
Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
(properly) in
the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
overseas may still be
a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
now.

Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!


Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
WoW!

First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
These little
negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
in Atlanta. But of
course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
in the world, right?

Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
his highly customized
ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
in February! You
can see if you like the results.

Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
that matter, smoothed or
profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
1200 and polished the
entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
Doing it 'right' is the
big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
in a couple of
years. Waste of time!

Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
Time + Knowledge = $$$$$


John Bojack 'J4'
LS-6c/18w







'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
the states right now are
by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
usually booked for the
year by the end of the soaring season so you might
not be able to get it
done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
and it looks perfect!!

Harold 'HE'

'Ventus B' wrote in message
om...
All,
I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
Casual
conversations with other pilots revealed that most
think a 'normal'
refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
with Gaines in
Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
charges $60 per
hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
if they are done
correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
more than my
purchase price!
Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
(properly) in
the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
overseas may still be
a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
now.

For spray fillers (primer surfacer) we use Sikkens
Colorbuid. It is a 2 part polyurethane sytem that
you can have blended to whatever color you want. It
is high-build and sands relatively easily. I have
sections of this filler on raw fiberglass and gelcoat
that has been sitting outside full time for 3 years
with no visible degradation. For thicker filling we
use 3M polyester glazing putty.



At 16:00 28 November 2003, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
Paul,

What are you using for fillers.

Richard

'Paul Gaines' wrote in message
...
Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make
money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor,
or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your
refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the
crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of
trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!


Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
WoW!

First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
These little
negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
in Atlanta. But of
course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
in the world, right?

Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
his highly customized
ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
in February! You
can see if you like the results.

Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
that matter, smoothed or
profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
1200 and polished the
entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
Doing it 'right' is the
big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell
apart
in a couple of
years. Waste of time!

Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
Time + Knowledge = $$$$$


John Bojack 'J4'
LS-6c/18w







'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
hlink.net...
I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
the states right now are
by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
usually booked for the
year by the end of the soaring season so you might
not be able to get it
done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
and it looks perfect!!

Harold 'HE'

'Ventus B' wrote in message
om...
All,
I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
Casual
conversations with other pilots revealed that most
think a 'normal'
refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
with Gaines in
Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
charges $60 per
hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
if they are done
correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider!
That's
more than my
purchase price!
Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
(properly) in
the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
overseas may still be
a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
now.

Do you have any experience with Concept 70 polyuerethane from PPG?
I've seen some gliders painted with it and they still look newly
finished 3-4 years later.

Paul Gaines wrote in message ...
For spray fillers (primer surfacer) we use Sikkens
Colorbuid. It is a 2 part polyurethane sytem that
you can have blended to whatever color you want. It
is high-build and sands relatively easily. I have
sections of this filler on raw fiberglass and gelcoat
that has been sitting outside full time for 3 years
with no visible degradation. For thicker filling we
use 3M polyester glazing putty.

James wrote.
Do you have any experience with Concept 70 polyuerethane from PPG?
I've seen some gliders painted with it and they still look newly
finished 3-4 years later.

I used it (PPG, Concept 70) on my Genesis 2 and Williams Soaring's repair shop
has used it for years now. I like it a lot, not cheap, though. Two gallons of
Super white (Toyota 041)+ catalyst and thinner cost $600 bucks. That mixes up
to 3.75 gallons though and more than enough to refinish a 15 meter sailplane. I
sprayed on 3 medium to wet, coats and then wet sanded with 600 wet and 800 wet,
followad by buffing. Finatics will go to 1000 wet and even 1200 wet. I'm happy
at 800.

I no longer recommend Prestec (sprayable gel-coat) for ships that are left out
all the time (FBO's) after seeing a ship that was refinished with Prestec,
crack and checker after only 4 years of outside tie-down. The acrylic urethanes
like Concept 70, have held out well in the same outside environment. Williams
has an ASK-21, that was refinished with urethane, well over 10 years ago. It is
a bit worn, but still operational and she never sees inside storage.
Hope this helps,


JJ Sinclair

This may be totally off the wall, but has anyone thought about
bringing the worker to the glider, rather than vice versa?