DG Flugzeugbau and LS: Not united...

ladies and Gentlemen,

check this: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/schade-segelflug-e.html


Please note this sentence:

At the beginning of October Bernd Gauger - the German agent of the Lithuanian company LAK -
and Axel Reich arranged a visit to our factory in Bruchsal. They mentioned that LAK were interested
in building the LS4.

Let's wait for the price list.. maybe we are finally getting our World
Class glider.

Bye
Andreas

Very interesting. Apparently someone else has outbid DG for LS, and
thus DG is out of the picture, with someone else getting the LS assets.

However, reading between the lines, it sounds like DG may mount a legal
challenge.


Andreas Maurer wrote:

ladies and Gentlemen,

check this: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/schade-segelflug-e.html


Please note this sentence:


At the beginning of October Bernd Gauger - the German agent of the Lithuanian company LAK -
and Axel Reich arranged a visit to our factory in Bruchsal. They mentioned that LAK were interested
in building the LS4.


Let's wait for the price list.. maybe we are finally getting our World
Class glider.

Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
ladies and Gentlemen,

check this: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/schade-segelflug-e.html


Please note this sentence:


At the beginning of October Bernd Gauger - the German agent of the Lithuanian company LAK -
and Axel Reich arranged a visit to our factory in Bruchsal. They mentioned that LAK were interested
in building the LS4.


Let's wait for the price list.. maybe we are finally getting our World
Class glider.

But maybe not the LS10....

U=BFytkownik Greg Arnold w wiadomooci do grup =
dyskusyjnych napisa=B3:exrxb.5892$ZE1.3773@fed1read04...
Very interesting. Apparently someone else has outbid DG for LS, and=20
thus DG is out of the picture, with someone else getting the LS =
assets.
=20

Sounds very good to me. DG could try to remove LS from the market. In =
the situation that appeared, this means more competition on the market, =
which always benefits the customer.

Regards,

JK

DG remove LS from the market?
Don't write such rubbish!

Try looking at the DG web-site:
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/index-e.html .

For their plans for LS see:
"Products - LS Flugzeugbau".

For general information see:
"DG takes over LS Flugzeugbau":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/ls-start-e.html .

NOTE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT BRAND PHILOSOPHY.

Note that all LS types are covered.

Note that only 12 LS 4s have been made in the last two years.

Note that they are dealing with parts, technical notes and service for all
types.

For specific information about the LS 8 see
"LS8-s - Model Enhancements of a high performance glider":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/ls8-modellpflege-e.html .

For delivery dates see:
"Order-Info",
"Delivery-Time for our Glider":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/lieferzeiten.html .

Note that DG are keeping the separate dealerships for LS;
"List with Addresses of the Representatives of DG Flugzeugbau":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/vertreterliste.html .

Note that DG were prepared to contemplate the LS 4 being produced by LAK,
and sub-contracting work to LAK.
"Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/schade-segelflug-e.html .

What chance is there that LAK could get the LS 8 back into production as
quickly as DG, and to the same quality?
Much the same question applies to the future of the LS10.

Will LAK be able to give the same service in the long term to existing
owners as DG?

In my experience in the UK East European gliders are bought because:
They are much cheaper,
They are readily available when there is a long waiting list for the German
equivalent,
They have some capability not available in a German glider, e.g. the
aerobatic Swift.
They have never been able to compete head-to-head.

There is a long history of German manufacturers sub-contracting to East
Europe and elsewhere, and a long history of resulting problems and inferior
quality (though not invariably).
Do you remember that Schempp sub-contracted the Open Cirrus to Yugoslavia?
The German built ones have always commanded a premium over the Yugo built
ones.
Some sub-contracted gliders have matched the quality of the German gliders,
and the German manufacturers have sub-contracted on that assumption.
However, on the second hand market there is often a preference for the
German built product.

I think that what seems to be happening to DG and LS is very bad news for
gliding generally.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...


U¿ytkownik Greg Arnold
w wiadomooci do grup dyskusyjnych
napisa³:exrxb.5892$ZE1.3773@fed1read04...

Very interesting. Apparently someone else has outbid DG for LS, and
thus DG is out of the picture, with someone else getting the LS assets.


Sounds very good to me. DG could try to remove LS from the market. In
the situation that appeared, this means more competition on the market,
which always benefits the customer.

Regards,

JK

Earlier, "Janusz Kesik" wrote:

Sounds very good to me.

Sounds to me like the representatives of LAK availed themselves of
several opportunities to prevaricate copiously to K. F. Weber & co.

Bob K.

U=BFytkownik W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). w =
wiadomo=B6ci do grup dyskusyjnych =
...
DG remove LS from the market?
Don't write such rubbish!

Been there, seen that. But... considering that the "target group" for =
similar models (e.g. more or less DG-800 and LS-10) is I'd say the same, =
in a longer period I bet the company which owns both of the brands will =
stop producing of one of these models just because maintaining the =
status quo means doubling costs in at least few points, just like the =
marketing two brands / models at one time targeted for the same =
customer. This could mean that the same area is "covered" by double =
expenses and still without fighting competitors on the market.

Keeping two brands would have sense if they would be targeted on =
different customers. E.g. LS would be marketed as "high-end" gliders, =
and the DG as the "value for money" brand just like I'd position the LAK =
or HPH produced Glasfluegel 304CZ. Then one brand would supplement the =
market area not covered by the second. If they have kept LS and DG in =
the same form together, they would just show canibalism only.

NOTE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT BRAND PHILOSOPHY.

When cost cutting will is implemented, then wallet talks, not =
philosophy.

Note that only 12 LS 4s have been made in the last two years.

Which still is a very succesful design, and a talented businessman would =
find some $$$ in the molds.
Just take the Discus CS, doesn't it resemble such a scheme?

Note that DG are keeping the separate dealerships for LS;

That makes sense, just look at the FIAT dealerships (at least in here in =
Poland). In most cases there are separate dealers for FIAT, Lancia and =
Alfa Romeo. Selling LS and DG under one roof means selling two competing =
(at least theoretically) brands. Customer could be distracted. See the =
beginning of the post.

"Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":

Moving LS-4 production to LAK is not a shame, it's just an example of =
effective cost management.
The next step would be looking for local materials if regulations and =
their quality allow (the most probably the second part would be answered =
yes).

What chance is there that LAK could get the LS 8 back into production =
as
quickly as DG, and to the same quality?
Much the same question applies to the future of the LS10.

I am not sure if I understood properly Your expression, but I think it =
is possible without any problem.
You may be surprised when Lithuania, on the 1st May 2004 enters the EU.
=20
Will LAK be able to give the same service in the long term to existing
owners as DG?

My answer is yes. It's not nationality, but people disregarding the =
passport they bear who ensure that.

=20
In my experience in the UK East European gliders are bought because:
They are much cheaper,

I agree. There are also "smart buyers" who look for the "value for =
money".

They are readily available when there is a long waiting list for the =
German
equivalent,

Not always. I think that the Germans did a good job (for them) by =
selling a certain amount of gliders slowly, but for the long time. Not =
just like the SZD which produced e.g. Fokas and Cobras in large numbers =
in short time.

They have some capability not available in a German glider, e.g. the
aerobatic Swift.

I agree.

They have never been able to compete head-to-head.

Sorry, but than is not worth remarking. Just see at '60s and '70s =
contests and then type such a rubbish.
Stick out the nose outside the Isle of Fog and see that there exists a =
world outside the United Kingdom and former colonies.
=20
There is a long history of German manufacturers sub-contracting to =
East
Europe and elsewhere, and a long history of resulting problems and =
inferior
quality (though not invariably).

Have You ever been to Poland? If yes, how many years ago?
Things have changed a bit, stereotypes change slower. Unfortunately.
Just think about it when You'll ask Your bank by the phone to make a =
money transfer. You've got a huge amount of probability that the nice =
woman at the second end of the telephone line sits somewhere in South =
Africa, India or Poland for example (the last case especially if the =
bank customer is German speaking).

Do you remember that Schempp sub-contracted the Open Cirrus to =
Yugoslavia?
The German built ones have always commanded a premium over the Yugo =
built
ones.

During old bad communism time... We know that. I personally remember =
these times. That's why I see things changed drastically over the last =
ten years.

Some sub-contracted gliders have matched the quality of the German =
gliders,
and the German manufacturers have sub-contracted on that assumption.
However, on the second hand market there is often a preference for the
German built product.

Stereotypes again... (at least if we talk about today's products). Just =
look how many parts in Your car are made in Poland and Czech Republic. I =
warn You: it may be scary experience! Driving such a Eastern Block =
crap... Look at the airbag and the safety belts - weren't they =
manufactured by TRW or Autoliv? If yes, there's a chance my friend's mom =
has produced it! Aren't You afraid of that in case of an accident?


I think that what seems to be happening to DG and LS is very bad news =
for
gliding generally.

Still don't agree, but... everyone has right to have his own opinion...

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

DG are publishing the messages they receive on their web-site,
see "Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/schade-segelflug-e.html .

If you have already looked, refresh to get the latest messages.

There are many messages from names familiar to any regular reader of this
newsgroup.

Janusz, I find your post too incoherent to reply in detail.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...


U¿ytkownik W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). w
wiadomo¶ci do grup dyskusyjnych
...

DG remove LS from the market?
Don't write such rubbish!


Been there, seen that. But... considering that the "target group" for
similar models (e.g. more or less DG-800 and LS-10) is I'd say the same, in
a longer period I bet the company which owns both of the brands will stop
producing of one of these models just because maintaining the status quo
means doubling costs in at least few points, just like the marketing two
brands / models at one time targeted for the same customer. This could mean
that the same area is "covered" by double expenses and still without
fighting competitors on the market.

Keeping two brands would have sense if they would be targeted on different
customers. E.g. LS would be marketed as "high-end" gliders, and the DG as
the "value for money" brand just like I'd position the LAK or HPH produced
Glasfluegel 304CZ. Then one brand would supplement the market area not
covered by the second. If they have kept LS and DG in the same form
together, they would just show canibalism only.

NOTE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT BRAND PHILOSOPHY.

When cost cutting will is implemented, then wallet talks, not philosophy.

Note that only 12 LS 4s have been made in the last two years.

Which still is a very succesful design, and a talented businessman would
find some $$$ in the molds.
Just take the Discus CS, doesn't it resemble such a scheme?

Note that DG are keeping the separate dealerships for LS;

That makes sense, just look at the FIAT dealerships (at least in here in
Poland). In most cases there are separate dealers for FIAT, Lancia and Alfa
Romeo. Selling LS and DG under one roof means selling two competing (at
least theoretically) brands. Customer could be distracted. See the beginning
of the post.

"Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":

Moving LS-4 production to LAK is not a shame, it's just an example of
effective cost management.
The next step would be looking for local materials if regulations and their
quality allow (the most probably the second part would be answered yes).

What chance is there that LAK could get the LS 8 back into production as
quickly as DG, and to the same quality?
Much the same question applies to the future of the LS10.

I am not sure if I understood properly Your expression, but I think it is
possible without any problem.
You may be surprised when Lithuania, on the 1st May 2004 enters the EU.

Will LAK be able to give the same service in the long term to existing
owners as DG?

My answer is yes. It's not nationality, but people disregarding the passport
they bear who ensure that.


In my experience in the UK East European gliders are bought because:
They are much cheaper,

I agree. There are also "smart buyers" who look for the "value for money".

They are readily available when there is a long waiting list for the
German
equivalent,

Not always. I think that the Germans did a good job (for them) by selling a
certain amount of gliders slowly, but for the long time. Not just like the
SZD which produced e.g. Fokas and Cobras in large numbers in short time.

They have some capability not available in a German glider, e.g. the
aerobatic Swift.

I agree.

They have never been able to compete head-to-head.

Sorry, but than is not worth remarking. Just see at '60s and '70s contests
and then type such a rubbish.
Stick out the nose outside the Isle of Fog and see that there exists a world
outside the United Kingdom and former colonies.

There is a long history of German manufacturers sub-contracting to East
Europe and elsewhere, and a long history of resulting problems and
inferior
quality (though not invariably).

Have You ever been to Poland? If yes, how many years ago?
Things have changed a bit, stereotypes change slower. Unfortunately.
Just think about it when You'll ask Your bank by the phone to make a money
transfer. You've got a huge amount of probability that the nice woman at the
second end of the telephone line sits somewhere in South Africa, India or
Poland for example (the last case especially if the bank customer is German
speaking).

Do you remember that Schempp sub-contracted the Open Cirrus to Yugoslavia?
The German built ones have always commanded a premium over the Yugo built
ones.

During old bad communism time... We know that. I personally remember these
times. That's why I see things changed drastically over the last ten years.

Some sub-contracted gliders have matched the quality of the German
gliders,
and the German manufacturers have sub-contracted on that assumption.
However, on the second hand market there is often a preference for the
German built product.

Stereotypes again... (at least if we talk about today's products). Just look
how many parts in Your car are made in Poland and Czech Republic. I warn
You: it may be scary experience! Driving such a Eastern Block crap... Look
at the airbag and the safety belts - weren't they manufactured by TRW or
Autoliv? If yes, there's a chance my friend's mom has produced it! Aren't
You afraid of that in case of an accident?


I think that what seems to be happening to DG and LS is very bad news for
gliding generally.

Still don't agree, but... everyone has right to have his own opinion...

Regards,

Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

U=BFytkownik W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). w =
wiadomo=B6ci do grup dyskusyjnych =
...
DG are publishing the messages they receive on their web-site,
see "Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":

From their point of view, I fully understand that "black day". For =
DG, not for German gliding.

JK

I think it is a black day for all gliding, not just for German gliding.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...


U¿ytkownik W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). w
wiadomo¶ci do grup dyskusyjnych
...


DG are publishing the messages they receive on their web-site,
see "Isn't it a shame - a black day for German gliding":


From their point of view, I fully understand that "black day". For
DG, not for German gliding.

JK