Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?

Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Forward for a taildragger, to get the hockey puck (in the case of the
L23, other taildraggers have nice pneumatic tailwheels) off the ground
as soon as possible and begin 'flying' on one wheel. Stick back for a
nose dragger, to get the skid/nosewheel up asap. In both cases use
whatever amount of stick req to keep it balanced on the one wheel once
until the plane is actually ready to lift off...

Most gliders have a tailwheel... but the L23 is a taildragger. The
tailwheel on the nosedraggers is generally for ground handling.

-Paul

My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air. This
way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to react
to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane do
what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just did.

And if you were flying a nose dragger, I would start wit the stick back to
get the skid up off the ground.

The above assumes air tow for your launch method. Nose draggers and
winches often will require the stick be held full forward at the start of
launch. Why? High enough initial acceleration to change it to a tail
dragger!

My two cents, and I am NOT an instructor. So, you just got more advice
than you paid for.

Steve Leonard

On May 4, 3:12*am, Michael wrote:
Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

Tom's advice is the best general advice you'll find.

For a glider with a non-swiveling tailwheel or tailskid,
in a cross-wind, proper procedure MAY be full
back, to keep the glider tracking straight until
you have good directional control.

There are plenty of gliders where lifting the tail
too soon with even a mild crosswind will cause
an immediate turn into the wind...

Talk to your instructor !
And review the proper procedure
when flying a new type...

Hope that helps,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Tom's advice worked for the first-time 1-26
student pilot I briefed yesterday - absolutely no PIO...

Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.


"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

On May 4, 6:42*am, TonyV wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the point,
* in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
to end up a bit behind the glider.

One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
lot of "it depends" included.

Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
replies that there are many differences that determine the right
answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.

THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
the runway once it gets flying speed.

Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
that in ways that are predictable.

9B

At 17:58 04 May 2009, wrote:
On May 4, 6:42=A0am, TonyV wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
Careful !

It depends on the glider, launch mechanism, and weather.

"It depends" is good advice from Dave. to further illustrate the
point,
=A0 in a nose dragger, you'd be generally advised to hold the stick
back
to get the skid / nose wheel off the ground ASAP. However, if this
nose
dragger happens to a 2-33 and the tow plane makes an abrupt start, the
skid will come off the ground by itself and the tail will slam onto
the
ground and there's nothing that you can do about it. You'd be well
advised to start with the stick full forward in this case.

On a calm wind day, The starting position of the stick is not too
important, IMHO, because the controls are relatively ineffective at
the
start. When the wind blows, it's another story.

Tony V.

Not to be overly facetious, but if you are positioning the primary
controls based on directions you took off the Internet, you are likely
to end up a bit behind the glider.

One of the main ideas in flight training is to develop a strong sense
of what you want the airplane to do under any circumstance and how you
need to manipulate the controls to get the airplane to do exactly
that. A mechanistic approach to flying will inevitably get you into
trouble. This, of course, is why when you ask what seems to be a
simple, mechanical question you get a dozen (or more!) replies with a
lot of "it depends" included.

Having said that, I know it isn't super helpful to someone with less
than a handful of lessons. I think you've gotten a sense from the
replies that there are many differences that determine the right
answer. Differences in: glider configuration (tailwheel - swiveling
or fixed versus nosewheel/skid AND cockpit loading/cg), wind
conditions (stong/weak, head/cross), tow type and profile (aero/winch,
fast/slow acceleration), wing runner performance (pointed down the
runway with wings level vs all sorts of messed up attitudes). What you
need to do in one circumstance can be totally different for another.

THAT said, generally with a glider with a fixed tailwheel that tends
to sit on the tail with the pilots aboard, reasonable wind conditions,
a straight and true wing run and an aero tow behind a towplane with
average power for the density altitude (forgot to put that one on my
list), your first instinct should be to push the stick modestly
forward once you have a little airspeed to get the tailwheel off the
ground so you can steer with the rudder and to put the wing at a
normal flying angle of attack so that the glider doesn't balloon off
the runway once it gets flying speed.

Again - you are the pilot. You will need to understand the balance of
all the forces on the glider and how moving the controls will change
that in ways that are predictable.

9B
When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
the throttle in the start of the roll.

I like Paul's answer.. and that is how I instruct my students.
But the best answer is.. "What your instructor tells you".
BT

"sisu1a" wrote in message
...

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Forward for a taildragger, to get the hockey puck (in the case of the
L23, other taildraggers have nice pneumatic tailwheels) off the ground
as soon as possible and begin 'flying' on one wheel. Stick back for a
nose dragger, to get the skid/nosewheel up asap. In both cases use
whatever amount of stick req to keep it balanced on the one wheel once
until the plane is actually ready to lift off...

Most gliders have a tailwheel... but the L23 is a taildragger. The
tailwheel on the nosedraggers is generally for ground handling.

-Paul

When flying a 2-33 or 2-22, which have high wings supported by struts and
which normally rest on their nose skids because the main wheel is aft of
the CG, rapid acceleration and light cabin load will allow the nose to
rapidly rise and the tail to bang in a way that is good niether for the
airframe nor the psyche. Furthermore, you will expose a lot of wing to the
propwash of the towplane, and in the case of a Pawnee, that can be
substantial. With your nose high and strong propwash, you will get a rapid
and sometimes nearly uncontrollable roll movement to the right. It will
come into control within a moment or two, but those two moments are
exciting, even for veteran 2-33ers. Lesson: pay attention to loading and
if you think you are lighter than average, ask the tow pilot to go easy on
the throttle in the start of the roll.


Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
throttle application.
Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

BT

Steve Leonard wrote:
My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air. This
way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to react
to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane do
what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just did.

Steve's method is the commonly used one on a good runway surface (and a
cross wind is not a significant factor), as it's easier to control the
glider; however, keeping the tail on the ground is a standard method for
soft field takeoffs, when you want the main wheel weight reduced as fast
as possible. It may also be useful on a rough field, when you want to
get off the ground as soon as possible. It is the recommended method for
both situations in my ASH 26 E flight manual.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org