Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?

Then you need to tell your tow pilot to be a little more gentle with
throttle application.
Even with light students in the front seat, smoother application of the tow
throttle can keep the nose from rocketing up while still providing enough
acceleration to provide roll and pitch control.

I used to fly commercial rides in a 2-33 from a 1500 ft grass runway
with 70 ft trees on one end and a barbed wire fence at the other (about
150 MSL, BTW). You always got an "energetic" start and the nose would
*always* pop up whether you liked it or not. We started the take off
roll with the stick full forward. I would *always* brief the passenger
accordingly.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
shorts.
R

At 23:51 04 May 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Steve Leonard wrote:
My suggestioin would be stick forward to get the tail in the air.
This
way, you are in control of the airplane. If you leave the tail in the
ground, the airplane will take off when it wants to, leaving you to
react
to what it has just done. I believe your task is to make the airplane
do
what you want it to do, and not to try to catch up with what it just
did.

Steve's method is the commonly used one on a good runway surface (and a

cross wind is not a significant factor), as it's easier to control the
glider; however, keeping the tail on the ground is a standard method for

soft field takeoffs, when you want the main wheel weight reduced as fast

as possible. It may also be useful on a rough field, when you want to
get off the ground as soon as possible. It is the recommended method for

both situations in my ASH 26 E flight manual.

It is very common in flapped gliders to nail the tailwheel to the ground
and you are able to do this because with full negative flap you are not
going to leave the ground or "winch launch" behind the tug. Keeping the
tailwheel on the ground is definitely the thing to do in a crosswind. In
many, if not all flapped gliders with full negative flap the tug may get
airborn but the glider is going by road. However for gliders which do not
have a flaps, or if they do, do not have a negative setting great care is
needed and keeping the tailwheel firmly on the ground for too long can
result in something very scary.

On May 4, 7:26*pm, hretting wrote:
I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
shorts.
R

Henry is absolutely correct.
Communicate with your instructor and read your glider's Flight Manual.
Changing conditions may mean changing your technique, so strive to "Be
One with the Glider."

I have not read the thread but I clicked on because of your name and sure
enough it is funny.
see you soon.
Udo

At 00:26 05 May 2009, hretting wrote:
I'm not sure Michael has an instructor. These are basic questions that
should be answered only by his instructor. Asking them should improve
the bonding and love that we all had with ours. It seems as if he is
learning to fly gliders thru the RAS site and I'm not sure that is a
good idea. Lets wait until after he groundloops his first glass ship
and we can all recommend the best way to remove the stain from his
shorts.
R

On May 4, 3:12*am, Michael wrote:
Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Michael,

Get a copy of the Condor soaring simulator (www.condorsoaring.com) and
do a 100 or so takeoffs in various wind conditions and different
sailplanes. Condor is realistic enough so you will get the picture
(literally) quickly.

What others may not have mentioned explicitly is that the initial
period only lasts for a few seconds during the first part of the
ground run. Once you have enough airspeed for decent elevator control,
then the initial stick position is irrelevant - you do whatever is
required to obtain the correct flying attitude during the rest of the
ground roll and takeoff.

Just my $0.02.
Frank (TA)

All the theory behind the above advice is probably correct, but
regardless of who is asking the question, the aircraft being flown,
etc, a simple instruction that is easy for the student to remember
and at the same time encourages the student to fly by reference and
react intuitively to the dynamics of the aircraft movement is:

Keep the wings level and the aircraft running on the wheel in line
with the launch direction. When flying speed is achieved allow the
aircraft to become airborne and assume the correct launch attitude.
This instruction applies to all launch methods and is relevant for any
glider no matter how the controls are rigged or mis-rigged or whether
the glider has a nose or tail wheel. If the student does not
understand these brief instructions then the student should probably
not be attempting the take off until a better understanding of how the
aircraft reacts to control inputs is attained. Put the stick here is
no more effective than turn in to land when you are over the little
house with the red roof.

I guess I am sold on this one as these are the instructions I received
when learning to fly in a mixed launch environment. I later learned a
similar lesson when being checked out for towing on a mixed fleet of
tow planes that had engines that rotated the props in different
directions. The answer to which rudder to favor during the take off
roll was and still is:

The one that keeps the aircraft rolling in a straight line.

For unusual conditions or aircraft the instructor only needs to advise
the student on the likely forces that may affect the take off to allow
the student to anticipate and carry out the necessary corrections.
Teaching flying by reference is what counts in the air and it no less
relevant on the ground.

Andy Gough

Henry is absolutely correct.
Communicate with your instructor and read your glider's Flight Manual.
Changing conditions may mean changing your technique, so strive to "Be
One with the Glider."


I'm visualizing the cover of your next book "Zen and the Art of Glider
Flying".

Tony

On May 4, 12:12*am, Michael wrote:
Very beginning pilot here (again).....and I am confused about the
appropriate way of holding the stick during the ground roll prior to
take off.

In Thomas Knauff's Glider Basics, he states (p.59, 2005 edition):
"....before signaling to proceed with the launch, the glider pilot
should set the elevator by holding the control stick at the
approximate position that will result in the proper angle of attack.
To do this, move the control stick the full allowable travel fore and
aft, and then find the mid-point, or neutral position. *Move the
control stick back about 1/2 inch from this neutral position. *This
will be very close to the optimum position for takeoff. Aircraft
designers build aircraft this way."

However, in Russell Holtz's Flight Training for Gliders, I see (p. 27,
2008 edition): "If the glider norally rests on its main wheel and tail
wheel, the stick should be held forward of neutral, so the as the
glider picks up speed, the tail wheel will rise off the ground."

I'm training in a Blanik L-23, which has a main wheel and a
tailwheel. * Knauff makes no mention of whether to hold the stick
forward or aft depending on if the glider has a tail wheel or a nose
wheel, yet Holtz does.

(It's been three weeks since I've flown, and I can't remember what my
instructors did.)

For a glider with a tail wheel, which is correct?

--Michael

Michael,

I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate
the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for
Gliders.

I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as
possible. You can see why this is important if you look at what can
happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the
ground too long.

In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator
is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is
still being “pushed” into the ground by the elevator. The glider can
then lift it’s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it’s
angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel
on the ground. The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch
into the air and climb rapidly. This could pull the tail of the tow
plane up, driving it’s nose into the ground. Or, as the glider lifts
off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the
glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot
induced oscillation.

With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the
elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying
speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low
to generate sufficient lift. If the stick is then moved back to lift
the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same
problems just described.

And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while
rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it
hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. A bump to the tail
wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. A bump to the
nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if
sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into
the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam
onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. If you hit a
bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near
the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or
angle of attack.

So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

Russell Holtz

In message
,
writes
snip

So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal
should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as
possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make
sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in
a nose dragger.

This is not the advice I was trained to in the UK. For an aerotow we
always start with the stick right back, and easy it forwards as the tug
accelerates. This we do with both taildraggers (the average
single-seater) and gliders like the K21 and DG500/505 that rest on the
nose wheel once the crew is in. The runway is usually grass.

For a winch launch we start with a neutral stick as acceleration to
flying is usually very fast, and it's vital that the early part of the
flight and the rotation are well-controlled.

Ask your instructor to run through it again next time you fly - IMHO
that's much safer than taking advice from anonymous strangers and
possibly finding it's not what your instructor wants you doing.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net