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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
At 07:11 06 May 2009, Surfer! wrote:
In message , writes So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as possible. To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in a nose dragger. This is not the advice I was trained to in the UK. For an aerotow we always start with the stick right back, and easy it forwards as the tug accelerates. This we do with both taildraggers (the average single-seater) and gliders like the K21 and DG500/505 that rest on the nose wheel once the crew is in. The runway is usually grass. For a winch launch we start with a neutral stick as acceleration to flying is usually very fast, and it's vital that the early part of the flight and the rotation are well-controlled. Ask your instructor to run through it again next time you fly - IMHO that's much safer than taking advice from anonymous strangers and possibly finding it's not what your instructor wants you doing. -- Surfer! Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net Just out of interest, what is the reason given for holding the stick back and gradually easing forwards for all gliders? i can understand for a 'nose dragger' (for want of a better term) especially on grass to avoid damage to the nose wheel. I would always be inclined to adopt the technique as described in the previous posting. matt |
#23
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
Mike the Strike wrote:
The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location, method of tow and weather conditions. Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago, as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever since. YMMV. Tony V |
#24
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider
lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all. (The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two fingers.) At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote: Mike the Strike wrote: The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location, method of tow and weather conditions. Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago, as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever since. YMMV. Tony V |
#25
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
On May 6, 7:45*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider lift off? *The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all. (The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two fingers.) At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote: Mike the Strike wrote: The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location, method of tow and weather conditions. Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago, as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever since. YMMV. Tony V Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting, left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to throttle, left hand scratching head, ... --- So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship, pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when something goes horribly wrong. And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training. At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those details now. Darryl |
#26
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
On May 6, 12:47*am, (Alan) wrote:
In article writes: Michael, I wanted to respond to your questions with the reasons that I advocate the takeoff technique described in the Flight Training Manual for Gliders. I recommend getting the glider balanced on the main wheel as soon as possible. *You can see why this is important if you look at what can happen if you keep either the tail wheel or the nose wheel on the ground too long. In a tail dragger, if you hold too much back pressure (or the elevator is trimmed too far back) the glider will lift off while the tail is still being =93pushed=94 into the ground by the elevator. *The glider can then lift it=92s main wheel off of the ground, but keep increasing it=92s angle of attack because the excess back pressure keeps the tail wheel on the ground. *The glider can either stall, or more likely, lurch into the air and climb rapidly. * This could pull the tail of the tow plane up, driving it=92s nose into the ground. * Or, as the glider lifts off rapidly, the pilot/student will often over control, causing the glider to slam back down to the ground, possibly starting a pilot induced oscillation. With a nose dragger, if you hold too much forward pressure (or the elevator is trimmed too far forward), the glider can reach flying speed, yet still not be flying because the angle of attack is too low to generate sufficient lift. * If the stick is then moved back to lift the nose, the glider can lurch into the air quickly, causing the same problems just described. And finally, look what could happen if the glider hits a bump while rolling on the nose or tail wheels, as opposed to what happens if it hits a bump while balanced on the main wheel. * A bump to the tail wheel can damage it, or drive the nose into the ground. *A bump to the nose wheel can cause a rapid increase in angle of attack which, if sufficient speed has been reached, can cause the glider to lurch into the air, or if flying speed has not been reached, the glider can slam onto the tail wheel, damaging it or the rear fuselage. *If you hit a bump while balancing on the main wheel, the force will act very near the center of gravity, and will not cause a change to the pitch or angle of attack. So, whether you are flying a tail dragger or a nose dragger, the goal should be to get the glider in to a flying attitude as soon as possible. * To achieve this, during the initial roll on take off, make sure the stick is held well forward in a tail dragger, or well aft in a nose dragger. I hope this helps to clear things up. Russell Holtz * Gee, and Charlie had me holding it forward of neutral in the 2-32, sort of the opposite of "well aft". * * * * Alan Alan You are comparing Russel's useful generalization and one good instructors' specific advice. If we could just read a book or ras and know everything we would not need those annoying flight instructors. Maybe Charlie was predisposed to baby the fragile tail wheel on a 2-32, or even if your 2-32 had a pneumatic wheel mod maybe he wanted to encourage babying the 2-32 tail wheel in general. Maybe he felt you were holding on too much back pressure (even without realizing it, e.g. causing an unexpected balloon up behind the tow plane) and was trying to help cure you of that. Or maybe one of several other reasons. Ask Charlie to explain the difference in his advice to the generalization in the textbook. Darryl |
#27
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message ... On May 6, 7:45 pm, Nyal Williams wrote: If the tail wheel is on the ground, how can back pressure make the glider lift off? The AoA can't be increased; I'd say it lifts off when a certain speed is reached with no stick movement at all. (The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two fingers.) At 23:04 06 May 2009, TonyV wrote: Mike the Strike wrote: The correct answer therefore depends on the ship, its hook location, method of tow and weather conditions. Yes, once again, "it depends". I think that Russell's advice is generally good and is what I do on most gliders - except for my LS-6. I used to get the glider off of the tail wheel as soon as possible but found I had much longer than expected ground rolls. About 3 years ago, as an experiment, I set the trim, left the stick neutral and kept the tail wheel on the ground until a gentle back pressure at flying speed caused the glider to lift one foot off of the ground with no hint of ballooning and no stick pressure at all. I've been doing that ever since. YMMV. Tony V Apparently not if you are Karl Striedieck. See A fine weekend... Not an option in my motorglider. Right hand on stick. Left hand closes and locks spoiler, left hand on throttle, left hand changing flap setting, left hand blocking unintended spoiler open, left hand back to throttle, left hand scratching head, ... --- So Michael - the real answer is stop trying to learn to fly by asking for opinions/voting on ras. You won't know enough yet to judge the advice, a lot of which will conflict (e.g. depending on type of ship, pilot skill etc.). If your flight instructor(s) can't answer these questions and/or do not cover them as a natural part of the flight training then go find somewhere else to learn to fly. This is not idle commentary, if the basics are not being covered and/or you don't have a relationship with your instructor(s) where you can discuss things then maybe somebody will be scraping parts of you off the ground when something goes horribly wrong. And while flying with different instructors is often a good thing as you get to share different teaching skills, ideas and tips but at an early stage it can be a problem. If you have instructor blur speak up and see if you can get with one instructor for the early training. At an early stage your instructor may well want to ignore a lot of detail and help you focus on specific relatively simple tasks (simple only once you pass the uh ha! moment). That may be why they are not getting into some topics with you. Again talk to them about this. If that is the case, you might want to talk with them about when these things will get covered in the training (they hopefully provided you with a written practical training syllabus) and don't sweat those details now. Darryl Michael: I'll just add one thing to all this excellent advice. Work to understand how and why. Buy a copy of the classic--"Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche and read it thouroughly at least once a year. Discuss what you learn from it with your instructor and have the instructor point out how that information applies to your situation-- Your Field, your towplane, your glider, as these are important variables that change the answer. Good flying to you Hartley Falbaum |
#28
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Correct way of holding the stick during ground roll?
At 02:45 07 May 2009, Nyal Williams wrote:
(The real answer to the question in the header is "Thumb and two fingers.) That's sort of the answer I was going to suggest. Remember all the jokes about that subject in the movie "Dawn Flight"? Jim Beckman |
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