F-86 and sound barrier

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force?

Certainly the F-86 can break the sound barrier in a shallow dive. Many pilots
got thier first taste of sonic flight that way. I have read that a Canadian
pilot used to open airshows by doing just that in the days before sonic booms
were outlawed in most areas.

Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

Yes. Though anecdotal evidence suggests strongly that George Welch was
probably the first pilot to break the sound barrier there will probably never
be any way to prove it in the same way that Yeager's flight was. Apparently
though some time ago the Air Force took to qualifying Yeager's flight as the
first sustained supersonic flight in level attitude.

John Dupre'

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the F-86 and Mig-15
and heard that the F-86 can break the sound barrier. I know that this has
been claimed many time before but is that the official position of the US
Air Force? Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?
No, George Welch was the first to exceed Mach 1 in a dive with the
XP-86. See: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch2.html

I also have a better source, my father. He was part of the design team for
the Sabre at North American and they were informed about this BEFORE
Yeager broke the sound barrier. He had to keep mum on this for a long time
though.

"JDupre5762"

I have read that a Canadian
pilot used to open airshows by doing just that in the days before sonic
booms
were outlawed in most areas.

I witnessed an F86 braking the sound barrier as a young fellow at an
airshow in Regina Saskatchewan in the 1950's. Test pilot, Jan Zurakowski is
given credit for breaking the sound barrier in a prototype CF100 in 1951 or
1952. Quite an accomplishment in a straight winged aircraft of this type.
The Mk-5 Clunk could not do this as wing tip extensions were added to
improve operational ceiling extending the life of the CF100 for a few more
years. Jan retired after the stupid cancellation of the CF105 Avro Arrow
project.

Ed

On 22 Sep 2003 02:27:51 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

Yes. Though anecdotal evidence suggests strongly that George Welch was
probably the first pilot to break the sound barrier there will probably never
be any way to prove it in the same way that Yeager's flight was. Apparently
though some time ago the Air Force took to qualifying Yeager's flight as the
first sustained supersonic flight in level attitude.

John Dupre'

Indeed, the evidence is very strong. However, the eggheads involved in the
XS-1 program were well aware that Welch did it without running his recorders,
and had no intention of admitting it publically due to clear instructions from
the Secretary of the Air Force not to steal the XS-1s thunder.

After Blackburn's book was published and additional material showed up on
the internet, the XS-1 and Yeager defenders came out of their holes howling
like the Knights of Columbus did over the Sopranos.

"Lies, all lies!!!!"

"Show us the proof!", they demanded. So, we showed them what we had (and we
have a lot, some of which I got from the Welch family). "Not good enough!", they
cried. I mean, the evidence is compelling and I would not want to be on trial
for my life in the face of such evidence. But, if you understand the anal
thought process of the typical egghead, you'll also understand that nothing will
be good enough. On the other hand, the USAF quickly amended their claim for
Yeager to read; "in level flight". Clearly, THEY realised that the evidence was
enough to throw great doubt on their 50 year-old
milestone. Better to redefine the accomplishment rather than explain why they
buried Welch's forays in the weeks prior to Yeager's first Mach 1 run.

I can't blame the USAF for covering up the event. Most of their research budget
was invested in the XS-1, as well as their prestige. God forbid that a
production prototype should push past Mach 1 first!

After Welch's first "supersonic" dive, NAA was ordered to bolt the XP-86's
landing gear down for future test flights to prevent a repeat. NAA went along
with that for a few days, but ultimately let Welch fly it again with the gear up
with Kindleburger and Atwood's blessing.

After Yeager finally achieved the initial program goal of Mach 1+, the USAF
allowed NAA to run a fully instrumented speed run (November of 1947). Finally,
the XP-86 was officially established as being Mach 1+ capable. Yet, to protect
their precious XS-1 program, the USAF delayed announcing the accomplishement
until April of 1948, and never accurately stated when the flight took place.

Nonetheless, Welch flew the same aircraft, unmodified from the early October
flights and flew the same flight profile as he did on October 1. So, the
question I have for the eggheads is this; knowing that Welch had an aircraft
capable of Mach ; knowing that he had opportunity; knowing he stated he was
going to do it. Knowing that it was witnessed by hundreds on the ground; knowing
that Welch claimed he did it; knowing that he was first to report seeing what
has become known as "Mach jump"; can they prove that he did not exceed
Mach 1 on October 1, 1947?

Of course they can't. The volume of evidence (that mentioned above being only a
very small fraction of what is known) is impressive and impossible to ignore.

Wisely, Yeager has been silent on the topic but, without a doubt would have done
exactly what Welch did had he been in the cockpit of the XP-86. This is the
stuff guys like Yeager and Welch live for.

By the way, is anyone aware that Welch flew several combat sorties in the F-86
in Korea (as a civilian). Like Lindbergh in the SWPA, Welch was in theater
showing F-86 pilots the strengths of the F-86. Family members state that Welch
shot down several Migs during his brief assignment. However, unlike his Mach 1
adventures, there exists no evidence that this is true beyond his logbook
entries. To my knowledge, no USAF pilots who were there have substantiated
this.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, VH wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

Breaking Mach 1 was a standard flight in the curriculum for Perrin
AFB's advanced flight training school for F86D interceptor pilots.
You went up to max alititude, nosed over into a full vertical dive
with full throttle and watched the Mach needle hit 1 before reducing
power and starting the pullout. This was in 1957. No biggie, except
the ego trip of claiming membership in the Machbuster's Club.



John Bailey
http://home.rochester.rr.com/jbxroads/mailto.html

In article , Dan
Shackelford wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the F-86 and Mig-15
and heard that the F-86 can break the sound barrier. I know that this has
been claimed many time before but is that the official position of the US
Air Force? Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

No, George Welch was the first to exceed Mach 1 in a dive with the
XP-86. See: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch2.html

I think you misunderstood the question. The question isn't whether
it was Welch or Yeager, but who the USAF officially recognizes. At
this point in time, it is still Yeager.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

(John Bailey) wrote in message ...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, VH wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?


The USAF likes to cover up everything and they are very good at it.
But answering your question- an emphatic "No" will suffice.
It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2. Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946). It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945. Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.
As a matter of fact, in the US, according to various sources Yeager
was actually the 4th man to break Mach 1.
You might want to look into Project Blue Book also, another US
document. In the preface there is mention that the only machines
capable of flight like the UFOs being investigated at the time were "
certain developments of the Third Reich in the closing months of the
war". Certainly they are NOT comparing a superagile, gravity defying
UFO disc with a Me-262. It is obvious that Germany pioneered some
revolutionary aircraft at the close of the war and that what the US
recovered in material and/or documents (also from Wright Patterson)
has led throughout 6 decades to the strange enigmatic discs and black
triangles flying today. That's why German disc aircraft information
remains highly classified and wont be declassified until 2020- a full
75 years after WW2.
What does that tell you about how honest the USAF is and how
historically accurate aviation history is?

Rob

On 22 Sep 2003 09:55:54 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

The USAF likes to cover up everything and they are very good at it.
But answering your question- an emphatic "No" will suffice.
It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2. Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946). It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945. Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

The highest speed ever attained by the F-80 was Mach 0.92, and it had a lower
drag coefficient than the 262. Hell, the 262 didn't even have a laminar flow
wing! Moreover, that slight degree of wing sweep was added simply for CG
purposes.

Unlike the XP-86, the Me 262 wasn't capable of even coming close to Mach 1.
Neither was the Me 163.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

Hi all,

The 'Welch/Yeager' argument conveniently ignores the NAA flight records for the
period in question. Either Blackburn didn't have these for his book or chose to
ignore them, but they clearly detail Welch's undercarriage problem on October
1, 1947 and also detail the redesign necessary prior to the next flight with
the undercarriage functioning. To suggest that NAA had to bolt the gear down to
prevent Welch going supersonic is ridiculous.

Incidentally, Blackburn also conveniently neglects to include the fact that
Welch had a P-82 chase for the first flight; it would have been difficult (not
to say crass) for Welch to sneak off and break the sound barrier with a chase
craft trying to determine the damage caused by the undercarriage malfunction
which happened during climb-out on flight number 1.

Much as I love the F-86, it wasn't first to Mach 1. There is (and always has
been) no subsitute for good research.

Duncan