A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Restoration
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

UK Firefly crashes



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 14th 03, 02:43 AM
F7FTCAT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UK Firefly crashes

Am I imagining things or does there seem to be a pretty high attrition rate
among the really rare airplanes at some of these UK airshows?

I mean there was the P-38, P-63, Mosquito, the Me-109 (Black 6), then there was
the Sea Fury on the golf course and the Sea Fury on the beach. Now there is the
Firefly.

I am certainly not trying to infer that we here in the states are perfect with
no losses. There is plenty of blame to go around for pilot error here that
causes the loss of men and machine as well as the inevitable mechanical
failure.

However, correct me if I am wrong (and I could be!!) but the news clips that we
see of these airplanes "going in" all seem to involve either low level
aerobatic maneuvers gone wrong or "grass cutting" low passes that go to hell
for one reason or another. The clip I saw on the Firefly looked like the pilot
dished out of the bottom end of a loop or something and went in pretty much
parallel to the ground, "a pancake hit" if you will. It almost looked like a
high speed stall as he was pulling out with a recovery initiated as impact
occurred.

I am sure that there are those that will brand my remarks as insensitive and
callous but accidents like this do happen for a reason. Barring a mechanical
failure of some sort, the primary reason is pilot error.

I am sure that the Royal Navy Pilot flying the aircraft was very well qualified
and a fine pilot and on any given day his skill levels matched or exceeded
those of any other warbird pilot on the circuit. The thing I do question,
however, is why does it appear that these airplanes are being put through
moderate to strenuous aerobatic maneuvers at very low altitudes with little
margin for escape if the maneuver goes wrong?

I myself love to see warbirds fly and I do enjoy seeing aerobatics as
well.However, I do feel that airplanes of which there may be less than a dozen
flying in the world should be flown as gently as possible so as to minimize
risk. I can enjoy watching a P-63 without having to see it do a vertical
pull-up off the deck. I can enjoy a Firefly without seeing it do a Cuban Eight
or a loop. I do not have to see grass clippings in the intake of a P-38 to know
that it is impressive on a high speed fly-by.

I hope the officiating parties undertake a review of these past accidents and
try to determine if there is a common denominator. If there is, it should be
eliminated, if possible, so that the airshow committee doesn't have to make a
decision every year as to "whether the show should continue" or not.

My condolences to the pilot's family and for anyone that takes offense by this
post, please accept my heartfelt apology. Unfortunately, these tragedies occur
for a reason and they should be addressed.

Paul Varga
  #2  
Old July 14th 03, 06:53 AM
The Raven
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"F7FTCAT" wrote in message
...
Am I imagining things or does there seem to be a pretty high attrition

rate
among the really rare airplanes at some of these UK airshows?


I think it's more a matter of their being more of these aircraft flying in
the UK.

I mean there was the P-38, P-63, Mosquito, the Me-109 (Black 6), then

there was
the Sea Fury on the golf course and the Sea Fury on the beach. Now there

is the
Firefly.


There have also been many other accidents involving warbirds outside of the
UK.

I am certainly not trying to infer that we here in the states are perfect

with
no losses. There is plenty of blame to go around for pilot error here that
causes the loss of men and machine as well as the inevitable mechanical
failure.


And despite all efforts it is inevitable that some will be lost, as tragic
as that will be.

However, correct me if I am wrong (and I could be!!) but the news clips

that we
see of these airplanes "going in" all seem to involve either low level
aerobatic maneuvers gone wrong or "grass cutting" low passes that go to

hell
for one reason or another.


Most seem to involve some level of aerobatics or "low margin" flying.

The clip I saw on the Firefly looked like the pilot
dished out of the bottom end of a loop or something and went in pretty

much
parallel to the ground, "a pancake hit" if you will. It almost looked like

a
high speed stall as he was pulling out with a recovery initiated as impact
occurred.


Whatever it was, it looked like he was going to be too low for my liking
regardless. Of course, I'm the first to admit I'm no expert on these matters
but it did look a little low.

I am sure that there are those that will brand my remarks as insensitive

and
callous but accidents like this do happen for a reason. Barring a

mechanical
failure of some sort, the primary reason is pilot error.


It involves humans, there will be mistakes at some stage.

I am sure that the Royal Navy Pilot flying the aircraft was very well

qualified
and a fine pilot and on any given day his skill levels matched or exceeded
those of any other warbird pilot on the circuit. The thing I do question,
however, is why does it appear that these airplanes are being put through
moderate to strenuous aerobatic maneuvers at very low altitudes with

little
margin for escape if the maneuver goes wrong?


The key issue here is that no matter how much we love to see these historic
aircraft fly they a historically significant, often rare, often quite
aged. For those reasons we cannot afford to loose them (including the lives
of those who fly and maintain them).

I myself love to see warbirds fly and I do enjoy seeing aerobatics as
well.However, I do feel that airplanes of which there may be less than a

dozen
flying in the world should be flown as gently as possible so as to

minimize
risk. I can enjoy watching a P-63 without having to see it do a vertical
pull-up off the deck. I can enjoy a Firefly without seeing it do a Cuban

Eight
or a loop. I do not have to see grass clippings in the intake of a P-38 to

know
that it is impressive on a high speed fly-by.


Somewhere a line has to be drawn. No aerobatics or very limited aerobatics
with big safety margins. I love aerobatics but would rather watch a warbird
do a safe moderate altitude moderate speed pass than watch in terror as one
is pushed to the limit............or worse.

Yes, the limitations are not hard and will vary from aircraft to aircraft
etc.

I hope the officiating parties undertake a review of these past accidents

and
try to determine if there is a common denominator. If there is, it should

be
eliminated, if possible, so that the airshow committee doesn't have to

make a
decision every year as to "whether the show should continue" or not.


Whilst the organisers always want a safe event, they also want some
spectacle. Leave the spectacle of aerobatics to more modern aircraft.


My condolences to the pilot's family and for anyone that takes offense by

this
post, please accept my heartfelt apology. Unfortunately, these tragedies

occur
for a reason and they should be addressed.


It's hard to explain all my thoughts on the matter here but at the end of
the day we need to be taking greater care of these historic aircraft and
perhaps should do more to avoid aerobatics. Keep them flying but please
don't push them.

The Raven


  #3  
Old July 14th 03, 07:24 AM
Richard Lamb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We're talking about a T3A Fire Fly?

Rare?

I know where there are 30 or 40 you can get
cheap.

Richard


The Raven wrote:

"F7FTCAT" wrote in message
...
Am I imagining things or does there seem to be a pretty high attrition

rate
among the really rare airplanes at some of these UK airshows?


I think it's more a matter of their being more of these aircraft flying in
the UK.

I mean there was the P-38, P-63, Mosquito, the Me-109 (Black 6), then

there was
the Sea Fury on the golf course and the Sea Fury on the beach. Now there

is the
Firefly.


There have also been many other accidents involving warbirds outside of the
UK.

I am certainly not trying to infer that we here in the states are perfect

with
no losses. There is plenty of blame to go around for pilot error here that
causes the loss of men and machine as well as the inevitable mechanical
failure.


And despite all efforts it is inevitable that some will be lost, as tragic
as that will be.

However, correct me if I am wrong (and I could be!!) but the news clips

that we
see of these airplanes "going in" all seem to involve either low level
aerobatic maneuvers gone wrong or "grass cutting" low passes that go to

hell
for one reason or another.


Most seem to involve some level of aerobatics or "low margin" flying.

The clip I saw on the Firefly looked like the pilot
dished out of the bottom end of a loop or something and went in pretty

much
parallel to the ground, "a pancake hit" if you will. It almost looked like

a
high speed stall as he was pulling out with a recovery initiated as impact
occurred.


Whatever it was, it looked like he was going to be too low for my liking
regardless. Of course, I'm the first to admit I'm no expert on these matters
but it did look a little low.

I am sure that there are those that will brand my remarks as insensitive

and
callous but accidents like this do happen for a reason. Barring a

mechanical
failure of some sort, the primary reason is pilot error.


It involves humans, there will be mistakes at some stage.

I am sure that the Royal Navy Pilot flying the aircraft was very well

qualified
and a fine pilot and on any given day his skill levels matched or exceeded
those of any other warbird pilot on the circuit. The thing I do question,
however, is why does it appear that these airplanes are being put through
moderate to strenuous aerobatic maneuvers at very low altitudes with

little
margin for escape if the maneuver goes wrong?


The key issue here is that no matter how much we love to see these historic
aircraft fly they a historically significant, often rare, often quite
aged. For those reasons we cannot afford to loose them (including the lives
of those who fly and maintain them).

I myself love to see warbirds fly and I do enjoy seeing aerobatics as
well.However, I do feel that airplanes of which there may be less than a

dozen
flying in the world should be flown as gently as possible so as to

minimize
risk. I can enjoy watching a P-63 without having to see it do a vertical
pull-up off the deck. I can enjoy a Firefly without seeing it do a Cuban

Eight
or a loop. I do not have to see grass clippings in the intake of a P-38 to

know
that it is impressive on a high speed fly-by.


Somewhere a line has to be drawn. No aerobatics or very limited aerobatics
with big safety margins. I love aerobatics but would rather watch a warbird
do a safe moderate altitude moderate speed pass than watch in terror as one
is pushed to the limit............or worse.

Yes, the limitations are not hard and will vary from aircraft to aircraft
etc.

I hope the officiating parties undertake a review of these past accidents

and
try to determine if there is a common denominator. If there is, it should

be
eliminated, if possible, so that the airshow committee doesn't have to

make a
decision every year as to "whether the show should continue" or not.


Whilst the organisers always want a safe event, they also want some
spectacle. Leave the spectacle of aerobatics to more modern aircraft.


My condolences to the pilot's family and for anyone that takes offense by

this
post, please accept my heartfelt apology. Unfortunately, these tragedies

occur
for a reason and they should be addressed.


It's hard to explain all my thoughts on the matter here but at the end of
the day we need to be taking greater care of these historic aircraft and
perhaps should do more to avoid aerobatics. Keep them flying but please
don't push them.

The Raven

  #4  
Old July 14th 03, 01:25 PM
The Raven
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
...
We're talking about a T3A Fire Fly?

Rare?

I know where there are 30 or 40 you can get
cheap.


Airworthy?


--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.


  #5  
Old July 14th 03, 05:41 PM
Richard Lamb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



The Raven wrote:

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
...
We're talking about a T3A Fire Fly?

Rare?

I know where there are 30 or 40 you can get
cheap.


Airworthy?


With IO-540's in them? I don't think so!
--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

  #6  
Old July 15th 03, 03:36 AM
Vern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Fairey Firefly...not a Slingsby.
  #7  
Old July 15th 03, 04:34 PM
Richard Lamb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ahh. Copy that.

Vern wrote:

Fairey Firefly...not a Slingsby.

  #8  
Old July 21st 03, 07:13 PM
Joseph Wilkinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have only just got to this debate. I was on HMS Victorious 1966 to 1967
when we bought this aircraft.
We paid, I believe £120 for it, but that could have been £160. The memory
goes with the passage of time.
We brought it back from Sydney to Singapore, and from there the RAF shipped
it back to UK in a Herk.
I helped to pay for it and over the years I have told people that I owned a
little bit of it whenever I saw it flying. When it crashed it was like
losing an old and dear friend. Very upsetting.
I met the pilot 2 years ago when he flew a Swordfish to Sherburn in Elmet,
Yorkshire, where it was built, for an annual pilgramage. He bought with him
a CD rom of Royal Navy aircraft for an add on to Combat Flight Simulator. I
fly it regularly. If you get the chance, get a copy.
However, I would always want to see aircraft where they should be....in the
air.
We know accidents will happen, but there will always be pilots to fly them
and public to watch them.
Sorry for going on, but I was just thinking about the times I sat in its
cockpit on passage to Singapore, shooting down the enemy with gay abandon. I
was only young you understand.


Hub & Diane Plott wrote in message
...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/3061391.stm
here is a link





  #9  
Old July 26th 03, 08:08 PM
ngilder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:13:04 +0000, Joseph Wilkinson wrote:

I have only just got to this debate. I was on HMS Victorious 1966 to
1967 when we bought this aircraft.
We paid, I believe £120 for it, but that could have been £160. The
memory goes with the passage of time.
We brought it back from Sydney to Singapore, and from there the RAF
shipped it back to UK in a Herk.
I helped to pay for it and over the years I have told people that I
owned a little bit of it whenever I saw it flying. When it crashed it
was like losing an old and dear friend. Very upsetting. I met the pilot
2 years ago when he flew a Swordfish to Sherburn in Elmet, Yorkshire,
where it was built, for an annual pilgramage.


Hub & Diane Plott wrote in message
...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/3061391.stm here is a
link



As a younger (we can all dream!)aviation follower I read your message and
of course our thoughs must go to the families and friends of the crew at
this time - a sad loss. I could not let the chance go by to thank your
group for doing their bit to save this aircraft, at least I got to see one
fly which is more than can be said loads of other aircraft. Nick
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Plane down - NASCAR team plane crashes... Chuck Piloting 10 October 28th 04 12:38 AM
Navy probes crashes of 4 jets Otis Willie Naval Aviation 0 March 31st 04 11:44 PM
Air Force plane crashes in Nevada desert Otis Willie Military Aviation 0 March 17th 04 10:36 PM
Military jet crashes near Marine base in Miramar; 4 feared dead Otis Willie Military Aviation 0 March 11th 04 10:20 PM
Houston crashes Big John Piloting 8 December 11th 03 08:35 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.