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The Most Exploited Generation



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 12th 04, 08:25 AM
Kiwi
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Steve Hix wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Lisakbernacchia) wrote:

WW II in Westeren Europe began on D-day Before that it was just a load of
inefffective feints


I would love to see you tell a veteran of Crete/Greece, Italy etc that
the campaigns they were involved in were ineffective feints. Italy
(in particular the Battles of Cassino) drew a large number of crack
German troops away from France etc (some of these troops had served in
Stalingrad, so clearly were experienced by this time), and had the
effect of keeping the Germans occupied. The Allies also learned a lot
from Anzio (ie how to not conduct a seaborne landing), and after Crete
the Allies also learned not to stage an airborne invasion in broad
daylight. Crete was almost a victory for the Allies - they
surrendered because they had lost communications, so were not aware
that they had the upper hand. If the battles in Italy did not take
place, then the Germans would have directed their troops & other
resources elsewhere - to wait for an invasion from England perhaps? I
am not saying that Cassino was not stupid - any person with half a
brain could stand at the various cemeteries around Cassino (all of
which have a view of the monastery) and draw their own conclusions as
to Mark Clark's ability to conduct a military campaign (count the
crosses - 4300 in the Commonwealth Cemetary alone, including my great
uncle and my grandfather's best friend). I just feel that you do The
US 5th Army (which included Poles, Indians, Ghurkas, British, Canadian
& New Zealand soldiers) a great disservice by stating that the Italian
campaign was an ineffective feint - Rome taken before D-Day, 20,000
Germans dead, and the German Army pre-occupied with holding the Gothic
line until the war ended. Furthermore, I haven't even mentioned the
Dambusters Raid (clearly ineffective - the Ruhr dams bombed and
destroyed, German steel production put back 6 months.....), and the
Battle of the Atlantic (to destroy German shipping and U-Boat
activity).
  #22  
Old June 12th 04, 02:53 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" writes:
In message , Peter Stickney
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" writes:
In message , Peter Stickney
writes
In article ,
WW II in Westeren Europe began on D-day Before that it was just a load of
inefffective feints

Tou'll have to ask teh French, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, adn Norweigians
about that.

Don't forget the Italians.


Well, you _could_ make a case for the Italian invasion of France,
their slight participation in the Battle of Britain (What was it,
something like 3 or so raids), and their invasion of Greece being
ineffective, but they were hardly feints.


I was more thinking of how a veteran of Monte Cassino would react to
being told that it was "a feint".


Paul, I said the _Italian_ invasions of France and Greece, in 1940-41.
Where the Italians were stopped at the border, in the case of France,
and couldn't make any headway in Greece. (And yes, fighting in the
mountains isn't easy, but you'd thenk that they'd have done better
against an opponent who was in a state of collapese (June 10, 1940, in
the case of France)

The Allied invasions of Italy were a much different matter. And
hardly feints.

Also, pretty much every Italian south of the Gothic Line was an
ex-fascist by D-Day, which isn't a bad achievement.


And there was no longer an Italian Army on the Eastern Front. That
may or may not have been a big deal to the Soviets, but it was a
not-inconsideratble number of troops.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
 




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