"Joy of Soaring" Book

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
from is welcomed..

On 9/6/2011 1:08 PM, ray conlon wrote:
On Sep 6, 2:37 pm, Bill wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24 pm, wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

I always found any knowledge is a good thing, the Joy of Soaring is a
wonderful place to start and expand on from it's basic concepts,
speaking for myself I am/was no Chuck Yeager and anything I can learn
from is welcomed..

"What Ray said."

N.B.: I greatly respect Tom Knauff's opinions regarding instruction
methodologies, the importance of the law of primacy, which books do a
better/not-so-good job presenting the basics, etc. Why?

Quantity of students instructed-to-license:
Tom Knauff - Lots, over 3+ decades.
Me - Zero.

That said, and with a nod to the law of primacy's power over what Tom calls
the reptilian part of our brain (which Tom argues takes over in moments of
great stress), the rational part of my brain genuinely struggles with the
precept that 'proper training' in conjunction with 'accurate self-generated
continuing analyses' are INcapable of overcoming the law of primacy.

In a nutshell, that's what (any) training is all about.

In other words, even if a person has - for whatever reason and in whatever
manner - managed to initially learn some
bad/incorrect/potentially-life-threatening information prior to obtaining
'Knauff-worthy' instruction on the matter, I'm inclined to believe that the
new information can indeed permanently and successfully replace the
old/bad/incorrect information...even in moments of great stress.

For example, consider stalls. I dare say some measurable percentage of
existing glider pilots once thought pulling back on the stick was 'the thing
to do,' even if only when 10 years old. I also believe it's possible for this
bad information to be 'trained out of wannabe pilots.' It may take more time,
and it's probably the wise instructor who tends to probe new-to-them,
ab-initio students' concepts of certain potentially life-threatening
situations/ideas/concepts (e.g. stalls - what they are and what to do about
incipient ones). In any event, I'd expect some insightful (aka 'sneaky')
instruction to see if said student really *has* absorbed the correct idea(s)
and applies 'em when immediately necessary; in hindsight, I realized my
instructor did precisely this. Consequently I tend to think it's somewhat
misguided thinking to hold 'bad == *initial* == ideas' up as the primary
contributor to the U.S. soaring community's dismal safety record of the past
two summers.

That's not to suggest some misguided thinking has NOT contributed, though.

Hence, "What Ray said." Information is good. Prior bogus 'knowledge' (may?
can? might?) make it more difficult to retrain us, but should not make it
impossible to do so.

Bob W.

P.S. I rather enjoyed "The Joy of Soaring" when it was loaned to me way back
in 1972 when I got into the sport, because I inhaled anything I could get my
hands on regarding soaring and flight. I never felt it hurt me in any
way...nor did I ever imagine it was the end all and be all in written soaring
flight instruction.

On Sep 6, 2:37*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Sep 5, 12:24*pm, Tom wrote:

The SSA has recently mailed a letter to the membership regarding the
continuing unacceptable accident rate. Studies have shown one of the
primary reasons for a high accident rate is a fundemental lack of
knowledge. The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

Tom Knauff

Right on all points.

Bill Daniels

Again: Whose studies? Published Where?

From the title page "The Joy of Soaring -- A Training Manual"

From the Forward

"...As part of the preparation of this manual, its authors visited
numerous gliding schools from coast to coast in order to ensure that
the text represented the best practices of commercial and club schools
as well as to hear the ideas of many prominent soaring pilots....."
etc. etc. written by Harner Selvidge, SSA training manual project
manager.

From the Acknowledgements:

"This training manual had its genesis in a suggestion by Mrs.
Catherine Hiller, SSA governor of Mass. As a member of the FAA
Women's Advisory Committee for Aeronautics she proposed that FAA
publish a glider training manual similar to the one they have for
power pilots, and that it be prepared for FAA by SSA... SSA undertook
the complete job of preparation and publishing on its own.

The real authors of this manual are the operators and instructors of
the following schools and clubs as well as other individual pilots who
gave so generously of their time and experience to make this manual
possible and even authoritative...."

Okay, so I think we can dispense with the notion that Joy of Soaring
was not intended to be flight training manual.

I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

"T8" wrote in message
...
I still want to know what objective study has been done and published
that supports the claim that pilots are crashing due to "fundamental
lack of knowledge". This is a serious subject, it deserves better
than sweeping statements without backing and opinion asserted as fact.

And I would like to see the logical "dotted line" from this particular book to
our (admittedly terrible) accident rate.

....because I have yet to see where one has anything to do with the other.

Vaughn

On Sep 5, 11:24*am, Tom wrote:

The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

That merits a big ol' [citation needed] in my mind. The foundation for
this assertion would be...?

Thanks, Bob K.

On Sep 7, 10:02*am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Sep 5, 11:24*am, Tom wrote:

The Joy of Soaring was written as a simple coffee table
book. It was never designed to be a flight training manual.

That merits a big ol' [citation needed] in my mind. The foundation for
this assertion would be...?

Thanks, Bob K.

On the contrary...From the forward of the book;

"The title of this Book, "The Joy of Soaring-A Training Manual" may at
first seem like a contradiction, but this is not the case...."
Signed by Harner Selvidge, SSA Training Manual, Project Manager.

It is spelled out quite clearly that it is a training manual, and was
in fact part of the training syllabus at Schweizer Soaring School,
whose staff including the schools owners, manager and chief test pilot
contributed to its content, as did many other notable soaring pilots
from around the country.

Mike Carris

Response from Tom Knauff:

Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.

It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
(fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
Piggott's book, “Gliding.”

During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
instructor.

In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
“The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.

It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
training standards established by other countries.

Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
and we had many conversations about flight training matters.

I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
originally only to be a coffee table book.

This explains the limited scope of the book.

The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
information be correct.

The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
“Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.

The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
activity.

It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.

Tom Knauff

On 9/7/2011 1:22 PM, Tom wrote:
Response from Tom Knauff:

Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.

It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
(fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
Piggott's book, “Gliding.”

During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
instructor.

In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
“The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.

It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
training standards established by other countries.

Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
and we had many conversations about flight training matters.

I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
originally only to be a coffee table book.

This explains the limited scope of the book.

The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
information be correct.

The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
“Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.

The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
activity.

It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.

Tom Knauff



It would be very enlightening for those of us who haven't looked at the
"Glider Flying Handbook" recently to highlight some of the errors that
are in that publication.

--
Mike Schumann

Tom wrote:

Response from Tom Knauff:

Sorry for the delay. We have been busy pushing back the flood waters.

It was more than 50 years ago when I began learning to fly, more than
40 when I began to learn to fly gliders. The first training manual
(fortunately) was “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langeweische. My
glider flight instructor was from Germany, and recommended Derek
Piggott's book, “Gliding.”

During flight training, (power and gliders) I experienced differing
opinions how things are done as I switched from instructor to
instructor.

In 1975, Doris and I started Ridge Soaring Gliderport. Shortly after
the school opened, we attempted to conform with the national
standards, and ordered the SSA recommended flight training manual,
“The Joy of Soaring,” and sold it to the students.

It soon became apparent this book contained information different than
the other texts. Eventually, we stopped using the SSA manual because
of these differences, and concerns about complying with flight
training standards established by other countries.

Derek Piggot first came to the USA at my invitation. He spent
considerable time at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, and I returned the
favor with a couple of visits to the United Kingdom. Wolfgang
Langeweishe made several visits to our gliderport at my invitation,
and we had many conversations about flight training matters.

I don't recall the year, (late '70s?) however, the SSA had a
convention in California, and I was fortunate to have a lengthy
conversation with the author of "The Joy of Soaring." When asked about
some of the issues about "The Joy of Soaring," he told me the book was
not originally intended to be a flight training manual. It was
originally only to be a coffee table book.

This explains the limited scope of the book.

The laws of learning include the “law of primacy,” which states “the
first experiences creates a strong, almost unshakable impression.”
This means what is taught the first time must be correct and complete.
Further, correcting what is incorrectly taught the first time can be
very difficult. It is very important for first presentations of
information be correct.

The FAA also is contributing to the horrendous safety problems our
sport is experiencing with the publication of the seriously flawed
“Glider Flying Handbook.” I am sure every experienced glider flight
instructor recognizes the numerous errors in this publication.

The soaring community accknowledges the safety problems the community
has experienced for many years. Despite a highly educated, mature
population, the fatality rate in our sport is worse than ANY other
activity.

It is long past time to fix problems and make necessary changes.

Tom Knauff


No doubt you will all have read this one from 2005:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/r...s4dtreport.pdf
Section 1.1.1 "Surviving Pilot's Statement" seems to say that he tried
to recover from a spin by pulling back hard on the stick and lowering
the flaps. Is this a translation error, or did a 4DM owner really
think this was the correct procedure ?

Gilbert

The FAA's "Glider Flying Handbook" and Tom's books.

On Sep 5, 2:10*pm, Carl B wrote:
I have just heard that the SSA is no longer going to supply "The Joy
of Soaring". *This is the book that I have recommended to ab initio
students and it has been well accepted. *What are other instructors
recommending to their ab initio students? *Thanks.

Carl