Flying through known or forecast icing

Tain't legal. The simple answer.

The more important question is: Can you figure out a way to do it
safely
so you don't draw attention to yourself?

For example... you never punch up thru a layer unless you have pilot
reports about
tops or you stay over a place that has wx good enough to get back with
100% certaintly if things go badly as you try to get on top.

As you go along, you must be sure you always have a 100% out. If it's
less than a 100%, you might get in a bad situation.

So you can operate not legally but with safety if you can figure this
out.
If you can't play out the whole solution, or don't have a continuously
updated 100% out, it's a no go.

On top is the answer in little airplanes. You don't start down until
you can get cleared the whole way down. You need good deals with
ATC to get this. Never descend thru a layer unless you have
reported weather underneath and are absolutely sure you can make
the approach. Search on N100KC for a dreadful example of violating
this idea.

The guys who claim they will never do this actually will when the
chips are down! So best is to think the problem through in great
detail rather than assume you will never do it.

Just one more thing: Always understand the wx well enough to
recognize the chance for freezing rain. It will bring you down! Night
time
makes this all much worse!

Bill Hale

As you said, the answer 'depends' on how risk averse you are.

Legally, the answer is, you cannot climb into icing conditions
(forecast or reported) no matter how thin the layer is.

In reality, you can use some judgement in the decision. Is the freezing
level above the MEA? It is icing rime or clear? How thin is the layer?

ATC is not traffic cops. Their job is to keep you separated from other
traffic. They don't care whether you have de-icing equipment or not, or
whether you are complying with all the other FARs.

John Doe wrote:
Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as to
what folks are willing to do in the winter time.

Assumptions:

Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment.

Situation:

It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the
forecast with the potential for icing to occur.

It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the
clear above the weather.

SO:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally
and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how
thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would
you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

I believe the recent interpretations is that this would be illegal as
the cloud layer at below freezing temps would constitute an area of
"known" icing and thus penetrating it would not be legal. As to what I
would do personally ... well, I won't answer that here! :-)


2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing
from a recent PIREP?

It would change my personal view of the situation, but I don't think it
changes the legality.


3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally?

I don't believe you can do so legally.


4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or
or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation
or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the
clouds?

Again it depends, but if I had sufficient fuel, I'd probably divert. If
I was low on fuel, I'd descend through the layer.

Matt

What if anything happens to the whole "known versus forecast" issue if there
is a pirep for "negative icing in clouds".
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
John Doe wrote:
Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as
to what folks are willing to do in the winter time.

Assumptions:

Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment.

Situation:

It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the
forecast with the potential for icing to occur.

It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the
clear above the weather.

SO:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you
legally and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your
trip? how thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc.
What would you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

I believe the recent interpretations is that this would be illegal as the
cloud layer at below freezing temps would constitute an area of "known"
icing and thus penetrating it would not be legal. As to what I would do
personally ... well, I won't answer that here! :-)


2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing
from a recent PIREP?

It would change my personal view of the situation, but I don't think it
changes the legality.


3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally?

I don't believe you can do so legally.


4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can
or or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this
destionation or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay
out of the clouds?

Again it depends, but if I had sufficient fuel, I'd probably divert. If I
was low on fuel, I'd descend through the layer.

Matt

Under current FAA/NTSB rules, nothing, the forecast stands
until officially amended.

The old joke, summer time forecast...
Chance of severe thunderstorms and tornadoes along and 1,000
miles either side of a line from 150 miles south of
Washington, DC to 300 miles north of San Francisco, CA. Tops
to FL600.

Winter forecast, same line from an unknown location to an
unknown location, with this...
Blizzard and whiteout conditions over the continent and
coastal waters, chance of moderate to severe icing from the
surface to FL240.

The forecast calls "wolf" so many times that pilots and
ground pounders became complacent. At least here in Kansas,
the new standard for issuing a "severe thunderstorm warning"
was changed for the 2005 season. They increased the size of
the hailstones and the winds that trigger a warning so there
would be fewer warnings.

Since Kansas can have steady winds of 25 to 40 knots and
higher gusts, without being associated with any storm, the
severe T storm warning of gusts to 60 mph didn't really
alert most locals.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"pgbnh" wrote in message
. ..
| What if anything happens to the whole "known versus
forecast" issue if there
| is a pirep for "negative icing in clouds".
| "Matt Whiting" wrote in message
| ...
| John Doe wrote:
| Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers,
but I'm curious as
| to what folks are willing to do in the winter time.
|
| Assumptions:
|
| Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing
equipment.
|
| Situation:
|
| It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are
midlevel clouds in the
| forecast with the potential for icing to occur.
|
| It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through
and cruise in the
| clear above the weather.
|
| SO:
|
| 1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have
icing, can you
| legally and would you climb through the layer to get up
high for your
| trip? how thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent
in the layer, etc.
| What would you be willing to risk transition through
possible icing?
|
| I believe the recent interpretations is that this would
be illegal as the
| cloud layer at below freezing temps would constitute an
area of "known"
| icing and thus penetrating it would not be legal. As to
what I would do
| personally ... well, I won't answer that here! :-)
|
|
| 2) Would that change any if those same conditions were
now reported icing
| from a recent PIREP?
|
| It would change my personal view of the situation, but I
don't think it
| changes the legality.
|
|
| 3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer
legally?
|
| I don't believe you can do so legally.
|
|
| 4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time
you get to your
| destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported
icing in it. Can
| or or would you be willing to transit this layer to
land at this
| destionation or would you turn around or divert to land
someplace to stay
| out of the clouds?
|
| Again it depends, but if I had sufficient fuel, I'd
probably divert. If I
| was low on fuel, I'd descend through the layer.
|
| Matt
|
|