Inadvertant IMC - DG1000, Manawatu, New Zealand

Artifical horizons aren't typically complex instruments requiring a spinup period anymore - I have it on an LX9000 and an AirGlide S only a single knob rotation away at any given time, and whenever I'm even slightly nervous about my situation I put it on the display. The AirGlide S has the airspeed on the display as well, so even an untrained pilot should be able to keep the horizon level and the airspeed roughly constant.

Particularly at the moment, smoke is a real hazard to VFR and it's difficult to predict when thin smoke may become much thicker in the cruise.

It's a shame that they're not more affordable and ubiquitous, but I would be concerned pilots would acclimatize to the protection they offer and end up in cloud more often...

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:40:10 AM UTC+10, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 6:36:29 AM UTC+13, 2G wrote:


These guys were in violation of NZ's cloud separation rules from the get-go, and the instructor was curiously behind the curve during the whole flight. They are very lucky to have survived. The narrator touched on what equipment and training would be required for them to be legally where they were at any point in the video, and they had none of that (it was not made known if the instructor had the cloud flying training - if so he should not permitted the student to get them into that position).
No argument there.
This is confirmation of my position that gliders involved in ridge (in the close vicinity of clouds) or wave flight should have an artificial horizon and the pilot must be trained in its use. I have gotten trapped above the clouds on a wave flight and had to make a 7,000 ft descent thru the clouds w/o any instruments other than the basic ones and certainly no training in instrument flight. I did it by flying a constant compass heading at a constant speed, making minimal control movements. At the time, artificial horizons were large, power hungry devices and never used in gliders. Now, they are small (at least some of them) and energy efficient. The easiest way to get instrument training is in a conventional power plane, and the most realistic time to do it is a moonless or cloud covered night away from any city lights.
I've heard this view from a number of pilots. I disagree.

In the case in the video they where only just over 1,000ft clear of the top of the hill they were soaring. Are you suggesting they deliberately enter cloud that close to terrain? On a day windy enough to ridge soar?

Or are you suggesting that after they inadvertently enter cloud they fire up the instruments, change mental gear, and soar clear.

I'd suggest that the more realistic option is to know the conditions, always stay clear of the cloud, always have a clear escape route.

Your instrument flying skill learnt in smooth air several years ago and not kept current by regular refresh will be unlikely to save you in a high pressure situation where you must do the right thing right now in high winds and likely turbulence.

--
Phil Plane
(Only caught above cloud a few times and always amazed we don't see more serious cloud related accidents. Those gaps disappear quickly and cloud can be sneaky)

On 11/22/20 6:50 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
so even an untrained pilot should be able to keep the horizon level and the airspeed roughly constant.

If that were the case, there would be a lot fewer fatal VFR into IMC
accidents. Pretty much all power planes have an attitude indicators and
yet they still fall out of the sky when untrained pilots venture into or
get caught in clouds.

--
Dan
5J

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 1:03:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/22/20 6:50 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
so even an untrained pilot should be able to keep the horizon level and the airspeed roughly constant.
If that were the case, there would be a lot fewer fatal VFR into IMC
accidents. Pretty much all power planes have an attitude indicators and
yet they still fall out of the sky when untrained pilots venture into or
get caught in clouds.

--
Dan
5J
While believing the instruments and controlling appropriately is vital; the difficulty I think,
is in suppressing misleading sensations. I convinced myself to do this on my first
cloud excursion ( in a stable glider with T and S ) and climbed 6000ft. Much later with
a WWII AH, I found it , in RAF parlance, a piece of cake. Add a GPS display and it is easier still.
An engineering training helps understanding what the instrument displays is a help.
I do not think I would have been brave enough to take an ASW 12 ( no brakes) into Cbs
as a team mate did in Yugoslavia, "72.

John Firth ( an old no longer bold pilot.)

In mid- to high-latitude maritime climates, of which Britain and New Zealand are fine examples, clouds are ubiquitous and cloud base is typically low. You have to fly in, around, above, or below clouds a lot of the time. In these countries, glider pilots are generally permitted to fly in these conditions, including inside clouds if properly instrumented and trained. This is quite different from the USA, particularly my (winter) home in the desert southwest, where regulations require us to stay well clear of clouds and those you encounter are usually two miles above ground at the top of a ten-knot thermal!

Having recently relocated to England (summer), I have had to recalibrate my approach to clouds. Earlier this year, a winch launch deposited me in the bottom wispies of a cumulus cloud (that caught my attention!) and ridge soaring is rarely cloud-free. Staying completely clear of clouds, as required in the USA, is practically impossible. I am slowly getting accustomed to my new damper surroundings, but feel that turn and slip as minimum and full gyro horizon (mechanical or electronic) are essential for safe flying. I am also paying more attention to where ground is, a necessary item as this video shows. Five knots of sink when you're 800 feet above terrrain doesn't give you long to sort things out.

Mike

My view of the video seemed much simpler -- and more avionics not really the key answer. They seemed to be running the front of the cloud with an easy out to the right, into the wind. There was a moment with a bit of leftward V shaped notch in the clouds, which they followed downwind. Then it sounds like the instructor got confused, and rather than turn right, follow the V shaped notch back to the right maintaining the path to the valley, they chose to go over the top of the clouds, with building cloud to their right. I was leaning to the right while watching! Clearly this brought them to the lee side of the ridge and a world of trouble. The first and most essential lesson, when flying in such conditions whether ridge or wave, always maintain a clear exit path! For ridge, most likely upwind. For wave, the exit path is often downwind. Perhaps being in the back seat is a tough place to make these decisions too, which require a lot of staring at clouds.

John Cochrane.

http://gliding.co.nz/news/latest-news/

I actually know of a chief flight instructor at a club that I no longer fly at who did this three times with three different people earlier this year.

But until somebody ends up dead there isn't a regulator alive that will do **** about it.