Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

I appreciate this is not a static figure - but say a yer average C-172,
or perhaps a 737.

I would hazard a semi-educated guess that lift is *primarily* produced
by angle of attack (or deflection if you like) - Newton's Laws - and by
a much lesser degree by Bernoulli's Law. I would guess that Bernoulli's
principle might create 20% of the lift a wing generates. A friend
believes it would be much lesser - about 5%.

--
Duncan.

In article ,
Dave Doe wrote:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

I appreciate this is not a static figure - but say a yer average C-172,
or perhaps a 737.

I would hazard a semi-educated guess that lift is *primarily* produced
by angle of attack (or deflection if you like) - Newton's Laws - and by
a much lesser degree by Bernoulli's Law. I would guess that Bernoulli's
principle might create 20% of the lift a wing generates. A friend
believes it would be much lesser - about 5%.

Newton and Bernoulli approach the idea of lift generation from two
different perspectives -- both correct.

Newton's laws explain lift as an exchange of energy and momentum -- a
craft flying through the air imparts some of its momentum to the
vertical axis, which manifests itself as "lift."

Bernoulli explains the fluid mechanics of lift generation via pressure
distribution, to create "lift."

Newton explains why we get a downdraft as a plane flies overhead.

In article orfairbairn-5EFA92.14080822052011@70-3-168-
216.pools.spcsdns.net, , Orval Fairbairn
says...

In article ,
Dave Doe wrote:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

I appreciate this is not a static figure - but say a yer average C-172,
or perhaps a 737.

I would hazard a semi-educated guess that lift is *primarily* produced
by angle of attack (or deflection if you like) - Newton's Laws - and by
a much lesser degree by Bernoulli's Law. I would guess that Bernoulli's
principle might create 20% of the lift a wing generates. A friend
believes it would be much lesser - about 5%.

Newton and Bernoulli approach the idea of lift generation from two
different perspectives -- both correct.

Newton's laws explain lift as an exchange of energy and momentum -- a
craft flying through the air imparts some of its momentum to the
vertical axis, which manifests itself as "lift."

Bernoulli explains the fluid mechanics of lift generation via pressure
distribution, to create "lift."

Newton explains why we get a downdraft as a plane flies overhead.

Thanks for the reply - looking for numbers, not the physics behind it.
IE looking for the percentage of lift obtained by each - and as I said,
although this is variable dependent no doubt on the plane and the
airspeed - just trying to get a rough idea (hence, say a C-172 or a
737).


--
Duncan.

On 2011-05-23, Dave Doe wrote:
Thanks for the reply - looking for numbers, not the physics behind it.
IE looking for the percentage of lift obtained by each - and as I said,
although this is variable dependent no doubt on the plane and the
airspeed - just trying to get a rough idea (hence, say a C-172 or a
737).

100% is produced by Newton's laws.
100% is produced by Bernoulli's principles.

The laws of physics are not additive with "x% produced by Newton and y%
by Bernouilli", they are complementary. They are merely looking at
the same phenomenon - lift - from different perspectives.

Also, note that if you hear "the air travels faster over the curved
surface of the top of the wing so it meets the air going underneath
at the same time", this is wrong. The transit times are not equal,
air going over the top of the wing gets accelerated and arrives
at the trailing edge _before_ the air that goes underneath.

In article , , Dylan Smith
says...

On 2011-05-23, Dave Doe wrote:
Thanks for the reply - looking for numbers, not the physics behind it.
IE looking for the percentage of lift obtained by each - and as I said,
although this is variable dependent no doubt on the plane and the
airspeed - just trying to get a rough idea (hence, say a C-172 or a
737).

100% is produced by Newton's laws.
100% is produced by Bernoulli's principles.

The laws of physics are not additive with "x% produced by Newton and y%
by Bernouilli", they are complementary. They are merely looking at
the same phenomenon - lift - from different perspectives.

Also, note that if you hear "the air travels faster over the curved
surface of the top of the wing so it meets the air going underneath
at the same time", this is wrong. The transit times are not equal,
air going over the top of the wing gets accelerated and arrives
at the trailing edge _before_ the air that goes underneath.

Cheers mate - no not arguing over that fallacy at all!

And we both agree the air over the top surface actually beats the air
underneath.

Thanks.

--
Duncan.

Dave Doe writes:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

In article ,
, Mxsmanic says...

Dave Doe writes:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

As said in other reply - not looking for a run-down on the physics -
looking for the *ratio* of lift obtained by each.

--
Duncan.

"Dave Doe" wrote in message
...
In article ,
, Mxsmanic says...

Dave Doe writes:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift
is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced
downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts
to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

As said in other reply - not looking for a run-down on the physics -
looking for the *ratio* of lift obtained by each.

--
Duncan.


Simple answer, there is no "ratio" -
Newton 100% + Bernoulli 100%, total = 100%

It really is a "chicken or egg" question.

Google "Newton vs. Bernoulli"
and "Newton vs. Bernoulli" NASA

I recommend
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

and much more
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/short.html

When done you can also work (troll?) on other important old disputes
regarding -
high wing vs. low wing,
track up vs. north up,
and slip vs. crab with a kick.

Happy landings,

In article , er, Private
says...

"Dave Doe" wrote in message
...
In article ,
, Mxsmanic says...

Dave Doe writes:

Does anyone have any figures and references for about what ratio lift
is
produced by Newton's Laws and Bernoulli's Laws?

All lift is produced by Newton's third law of motion. Air is forced
downwards
by the wings, and this produces an equal and opposite force that attempts
to
raise the wings, and that is lift. How the air is forced downwards is
irrelevant, as long as it happens. In practice, principles discovered by
Bernoulli and others play a role in diverting the air flow when this is
accomplished by an airfoil.

As said in other reply - not looking for a run-down on the physics -
looking for the *ratio* of lift obtained by each.

--
Duncan.


Simple answer, there is no "ratio" -
Newton 100% + Bernoulli 100%, total = 100%

So a wing generates as much lift upside down?

What I want, is half the difference between a wing up the right way, and
the wing up the wrong way. That is, I presume, the additional lifting
force from the Bernoulli effect vs a wing with a mirrored camber
(obtaining no lift due to the Bernoulli effect).


It really is a "chicken or egg" question.

Google "Newton vs. Bernoulli"
and "Newton vs. Bernoulli" NASA

Perhaps it is. I have googled.


I recommend
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

Been there.


and much more
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/short.html

And there.


When done you can also work (troll?) on other important old disputes
regarding -
high wing vs. low wing,
track up vs. north up,
and slip vs. crab with a kick.

Happy landings,

Not interested in trolling. If you think I am, please do not reply, or
reply and say so, and I will do as such.

--
Duncan.

On 5/23/2011 3:40 AM, Dave Doe wrote:

Simple answer, there is no "ratio" -
Newton 100% + Bernoulli 100%, total = 100%

So a wing generates as much lift upside down?

For an aircraft flying level, at the same speeds, upright and inverted,
the wings produce IDENTICAL lift.
To do this, the inverted airfoil needs a higher angle of attack usually.

You are really dragging out all the old causes for disagreement: I can
see why you would be using a pseudonym

Brian W