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Abrupt Controller



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 8th 08, 12:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]
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Posts: 721
Default Abrupt Controller

Peter Clark wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Peter Clark wrote:

I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting
mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever.


Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are
correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be
changed. It was widely misreported.


Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated
for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the
controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still
had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't
correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I
misremembered somethin tho.


It happened a little differently.

Aircraft A requested a different altitude. ATC assigns different altitude
to aircraft A. Aircraft A and aircraft B read back altitude issued to
aircraft A. Controller hears only loud squeal, asks aircraft A to say
again. Loss of separation occurs between aircraft B and aircraft C.
Aircraft B is violated for taking a clearance issued to another aircraft.
Aircraft B's defense is the uncorrected readback, a readback that was never
heard or acknowledged by ATC because it was blocked by aircraft A's
readback.


  #22  
Old August 8th 08, 01:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Abrupt Controller

Viperdoc wrote:
Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where
you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your
computer game.


And, he also plays with himself.
  #23  
Old August 13th 08, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mike[_22_]
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Posts: 466
Default Abrupt Controller

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Peter Clark wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Peter Clark wrote:

I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting
mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever.


Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are
correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be
changed. It was widely misreported.


Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated
for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the
controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still
had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't
correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I
misremembered somethin tho.


It happened a little differently.

Aircraft A requested a different altitude. ATC assigns different altitude
to aircraft A. Aircraft A and aircraft B read back altitude issued to
aircraft A. Controller hears only loud squeal, asks aircraft A to say
again. Loss of separation occurs between aircraft B and aircraft C.
Aircraft B is violated for taking a clearance issued to another aircraft.
Aircraft B's defense is the uncorrected readback, a readback that was
never heard or acknowledged by ATC because it was blocked by aircraft A's
readback.


I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated even though his readback
error was not caught. The controller was charged with an error as well.
This is no doubt the exception as usually the controller buys the error
exclusively.

  #24  
Old August 15th 08, 04:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Scott Moore
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Posts: 9
Default Abrupt Controller

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I'll run this scenario past the group and see what you all think and is if
Mr. McNicoll can shed some light as well.

First, some quick background. At my airport if you are IFR and are heading,
say, southwest (as I was) it's too bad...you're clearance is to send you 22
miles north to a fix and then 15 mile east to another fix and then they will
turn you on course. Usually, if asked, you can get direct on course shortly
after take-off. If traffic permits they will clear you to go direct to your
first filed fix on course.

Ok so...I took-off on an IFR flight plan and I had just leveled off at 4000'
north bound for their fix. Next they gave me a vector of 090. After a
minute or so I asked the controller, "McGuire Approach, Cardinal 07G, any
chance direct Smyrna (ENO)?" The response I got was, "07G direct Smyrna


The usual way to say this is "unable direct" or "unable direct Smyrna".

Your readback of the whole instruction should have tipped him off, since there
was no real reason to read back what he basically read back to you, but
with "unable" at the front.

unable." Ok...that would be fine if that was what my busy brain heard, but
I did not hear it that way...my brain heard, "07G direct Smyrna 'when
able'." Shortly after I turned direct for ENO I got a VERY large lecture
with unneeded and unnecessary attitude. "07G I TOLD YOU STAY 090. CAN'T
YOU LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND ATC INSTRUCTIONS? WHEN I GIVE YOU A VECTOR YOU ARE
TO FOLLOW IT EXACTLY AND CAREFULLY!!"

When I explained to him that I heard him say, "...direct ENO when able." he
became even more belligerent. "I DID *NOT* SAY THAT!! YOU NEED TO LISTEN
TO ATC INSTRUCTION MORE CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTION EXACTLY."


I have had several controllers go off on me like that, and even went through
the motions of complaining, getting the tape read back, etc.

Why waste your time and energy. There was a misunderstanding. It wasn't
personal. In 5 minutes you will be talking to someone else, and if it is
*really* bad (a voilation), you don't want to be recorded as being
belligerent.
  #25  
Old August 21st 08, 12:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Kloudy via AviationKB.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 376
Default Abrupt Controller

Mike wrote:

I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated


Speaking of questionable phraseology.

Who is "violating" all these pilots.

And what is the manner in which they are "violated".

sounds painful

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

  #26  
Old September 5th 08, 01:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mike[_22_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 466
Default Abrupt Controller

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in message
news:88f9980d2063f@uwe...
Mike wrote:

I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated


Speaking of questionable phraseology.

Who is "violating" all these pilots.

And what is the manner in which they are "violated".

sounds painful


Nobody does for phraseology.

 




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