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Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 24th 11, 09:42 AM
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  #22  
Old May 24th 11, 09:44 AM
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  #23  
Old May 24th 11, 09:48 AM
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  #24  
Old May 24th 11, 09:51 AM
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  #25  
Old May 24th 11, 09:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith[_2_]
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Default Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...

On 2011-05-23, Dave Doe wrote:
Thanks for the reply - looking for numbers, not the physics behind it.
IE looking for the percentage of lift obtained by each - and as I said,
although this is variable dependent no doubt on the plane and the
airspeed - just trying to get a rough idea (hence, say a C-172 or a
737).


100% is produced by Newton's laws.
100% is produced by Bernoulli's principles.

The laws of physics are not additive with "x% produced by Newton and y%
by Bernouilli", they are complementary. They are merely looking at
the same phenomenon - lift - from different perspectives.

Also, note that if you hear "the air travels faster over the curved
surface of the top of the wing so it meets the air going underneath
at the same time", this is wrong. The transit times are not equal,
air going over the top of the wing gets accelerated and arrives
at the trailing edge _before_ the air that goes underneath.

  #26  
Old May 24th 11, 09:55 AM
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  #27  
Old May 24th 11, 09:57 AM
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  #28  
Old May 24th 11, 09:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith[_2_]
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Default Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...

On 2011-05-23, Dave Doe wrote:
I'll rephrase it a second time. What percentage of extra lift is gained
from:
a) a plank of wood (can only produce lift via angle of attack)
vs


100% Newton
100% Bernouilli

b) a plank of wood that is an airfoil - and is getting lift from both
angle of attack and the Bernoulli effect.


100% Newton
100% Bernouilli

  #29  
Old May 24th 11, 10:01 AM
SophiaEnman SophiaEnman is offline
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  #30  
Old May 24th 11, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dave Doe
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Posts: 378
Default Lift - Newton/Bernoulli ratio...

In article 1454525a-4a26-432c-a550-42e437fb2070
@f11g2000vbx.googlegroups.com, , Dudley
Henriques says...

On May 23, 4:40*am, Dave Doe wrote:
In article , , Private
says...











"Dave Doe" wrote in message
...
In article ,
, Mxsmanic says...


Dave Doe writes:


So a wing generates as much lift upside down? *


Absolutely..........without question! The EXACT same explanation of
lift creation is in play on an inverted wing as on the upright wing.
Applies to barn doors as well.
Newton= 100% Bernoulli= 100%.
Dudley Henriques


We're talking lift here mate - that's in the upwards direction!

If you are right, I'd expect to see planes with the airfoil upsidedown
(with the increased camber on the bottom), but that's not the case (and
I'm talking about the *wings* here, not the horizontal stabiliser

However, I'm getting what you're saying - and will now argue with my
mate that an airfoil is simply a more *efficient* device (vs. a barn
door).

He has not disagreed that:
* All wings (barn door or airfoil) create lift by deflecting
(accelerating) air (which has mass), down. Simple. F=ma.
* An airfoil produces lift by Newtonian mechanics in the same way as a
barn door (angle of attack), *but* ...
* An airfoil has increased camber over the top surface - and the air
flowing around that is pulling air down - a low pressure area is created
(and the air is accelerated over the wing (lets not go into the air
particles meet up, same as the bottom fallacy - and nor are either of us
arguing over that)).

I think you have explained though, that the Bernoulli effect occurs with
a barn door too at an angle of attack - however it is a lot less
*efficient* without that camber (which will continue to 'suck' air down
- as the camber continues to change direction - and therefore drag the
viscous air around it with it). I hope you'll agree with that.

In my reading up of the Bernoulli principle on various pages, it seems
to me that one of it's most important uses is that is often used as an
accurate *means* by which lift is calculated.

It should be an interesting argument - and many thanks for your replies.
I won't reply to your other responses - don't think it's necessary.

--
Duncan.
 




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