'Notamed closed' question

surely you don't expect me to believe you can't get a replacement
faxed to you just because you're on a cross-country flight? I think it's
safe to say, if there's an FAA inspector around, a fax machine can't be far
away.


There you are on a cross country, you find it prudent to stop for fuel earlier
than you had planned, you pick out an airport and land there. You do have
enough gas to continue the flight at least part way, but you are gassing up
here because you've been there before and the gas is cheap. You taxi up and
are met by the airport owner and the constable.

The airport's closed by NOTAM - but you didn't get NOTAMs for this particular
unintended stop.

The constable (just like a highway traffic stop) asks to see your license, and
you hold it out to him. Just like a highway stop, he asks you to take it out
of the wallet and hand it to him, along with your official government issued
photo ID.

You say no on the highway and you're taken to jail.

You say no here and you may well be taken away for "national security" reasons.
You say yes and hand it over; they give you back your pilot license and keep
your photo ID "just for a while".

It's 8:30 pm. Friday night. July 1.

Jose


(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
[long yarn about a police officer arresting a pilot snipped]

What's any of that got to do with the question of surrendering your pilot
certificate to an FAA inspector?

[long yarn about a police officer arresting a pilot snipped]

What's any of that got to do with the question of surrendering your pilot
certificate to an FAA inspector?


An FAA inspector could be there instead of the airport owner, also backed by
the constable. The taking of the photo ID is sufficient; it is unnecessary to
have to surrender your certificate nowadays to have the same effect. One
authority can always call on the other authority upon resistance (whether this
happens or not I don't know, and don't want to find out)

Jose



(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:

surely you don't expect me to believe you can't get a replacement
faxed to you just because you're on a cross-country flight? I think it's
safe to say, if there's an FAA inspector around, a fax machine can't be far
away.



There you are on a cross country, you find it prudent to stop for fuel earlier
than you had planned, you pick out an airport and land there. You do have
enough gas to continue the flight at least part way, but you are gassing up
here because you've been there before and the gas is cheap. You taxi up and
are met by the airport owner and the constable.

The airport's closed by NOTAM - but you didn't get NOTAMs for this particular
unintended stop.

The constable (just like a highway traffic stop) asks to see your license, and
you hold it out to him. Just like a highway stop, he asks you to take it out
of the wallet and hand it to him, along with your official government issued
photo ID.

You say no on the highway and you're taken to jail.

You say no here and you may well be taken away for "national security" reasons.
You say yes and hand it over; they give you back your pilot license and keep
your photo ID "just for a while".

It's 8:30 pm. Friday night. July 1.

So what, you wouldn't fly away?

Long, long ago in a society far, far away, I would have agreed with you
John... In those days I respected the inspectors of the FAA, FCC, DEA,
etc... The world has changed... The courts have found over and over that the
existence of self serving rules does not negate the responsibility of
government employees to observe due process and constitutional
protections... Sure, they will run over you if you let them - but that is
the key, just say NO... Police will demand that you let them in your house,
but cannot step foot inside if you simply say no... Yes, they can get a
search warrant - and that is a good reminder for them to have to go hat in
hand and beg for permission...

I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all I
know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on an
airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is good
enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then it
is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
your distance...

Denny

"John Galban" wrote in message According to the
regs, you are required to present your certificate
when asked by an FAA rep

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all I
know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on an
airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is good
enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then it
is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
your distance...

Have you ever tested your resolve during a ramp check? If so, what
happened? Though I agree with the sentiment of your post, I generally
adhere to the philosophy that it's unwise to play games with someone who
is in a position to screw you up just because he feels like it. This is
especially true if the person seems to have the intelligence of a garden
tool.

Also, if you don't trust the person's ID and documents, what makes you
think he couldn't also forge a letter using an Oklahoma City PO box as
the return address?

Tim

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
An FAA inspector could be there instead of the airport owner, also backed
by
the constable. The taking of the photo ID is sufficient; it is
unnecessary to
have to surrender your certificate nowadays to have the same effect.

The police officer doesn't have the authority to demand your driver's
license either. I look forward to being arrested in a situation such as you
describe. In recent years, individuals have made quite a lot of money
(typically hundreds of thousands of dollars, up to a million) as a result of
such capricious arrests.

In any case, having the police officer take your driver's license still has
nothing to do with an FAA inspector taking your pilot certificate.

IMHO, you are far too willing to let persons in positions of authority have
their way with you.

Pete

"Tim Bengtson" wrote in message
...
Dennis O'Connor wrote:

I will not show/surrender my papers to some bozo on the ramp... For all
I
know he could be an escaped mental patient who stole someone's ID... He
could be a terrorist with forged documents desperate to get his hands on
an
airplane..Even the courts do their business through the mail. If it is
good
enough for all levels of the courts, up to the U.S. Supreme Court, then
it
is good enough for the FAA... They are just bureaucrats - no more, no
less... Send me an official letter and I will respond - otherwise, keep
your distance...

Have you ever tested your resolve during a ramp check? If so, what
happened? Though I agree with the sentiment of your post, I generally
adhere to the philosophy that it's unwise to play games with someone who
is in a position to screw you up just because he feels like it. This is
especially true if the person seems to have the intelligence of a garden
tool.

Also, if you don't trust the person's ID and documents, what makes you
think he couldn't also forge a letter using an Oklahoma City PO box as
the return address?

Tim

Somewhere on the EAA WEB site is a "what to do during a ramp check" article.
One of the items is to never ever let the FAA touch your certificate. The
other thing you can do is say it is time for you to depart. The FAA cannot
delay your departure. I carry a copy of the article in the plane and it is
the first thing I would grab if someone presented credentials.

The police officer doesn't have the authority to demand your driver's
license either....IMHO, you are far too willing to let persons in positions of
authority have
their way with you.


So, you're pulled over on the highway and the police officer asks for your
license and registration. What do you do?

Jose



(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
So, you're pulled over on the highway and the police officer asks for your
license and registration. What do you do?

I hand it to him. I fail to see the relevance. In one case, an official is
trying to extend their authority beyond that granted him. In the other, an
official is simply doing their job, exercising authority granted him.

But even the police officer does not have the authority to keep your
driver's license, not even at a traffic stop never mind at an airport.

Pete