How did the Brits do it?

As the war progressed navigational aids like Gee and Oboe along
with Radar aids like H2S and the use of Pathfinders did improve
accuracy a great deal so that by 1944 the RAF were able to
atatck and obliterate targets varying from troop concentrations
in Normandy to entire cities.

Keith


Of course Gee Box and Oboe came very late in the war. I flew a number of
Gee
missions as the war drew to a close. But how anyone can do long range
dead
reckoning when wind drift and velocity cannot be reliably determined, with
no
view of the stars or gound, makes things a bit hopeless. But I would say
that
90% or more of those missions were flown without any electronic or radar
aids
at all.

Not really Art

Bomber command flew its first mission using Gee in late 1941.

On March 3 1942 the first major raid that utilised gee equipped
aircraft dropping flares for the main force was made against the
Renault works at Billancourt in France. 223 of 235 aircraft
found their target). Losses were very light (one Wellington was lost)
, and damage was evaluated as 'heavy'

By mid summer 1942 almost all BC aircraft had Gee. H2S began
arriving in service in 1943.



We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the mission
ok.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 3/10/04 12:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kieth noted in response to Art's question about driftmeters on Bomber Command
A/C:
Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

As long as it was overcast not clouds below, it is/was amazing how much info
you could get from one of those suckers.
One light on the ground or the reflection off of one body of water (pond,
lake,
stream) provided something to work with as opposed to nothing.
Gee and H2S were a great improvement to accuracy.
It is one pain in the rear to shoot celestial in an a/c bouncing and bucking
around in Northern European skys.

Rick Clark

Exactly, If you could see a glimmer of anything on the ground you could grab
off a drift reading. Of course the best driftmeter was the Norden bombsight.But
you had to be in the nose to use it. If you were in the nav compartment there
was no way you could get a drift reading You were blind. I always wondered why
they didn't put a driftmeter in the nav compartment. Nothing fancy any simple
driftmeter was better than none. Flying along with no idea of where the wind
was blowing you was not a good feeling.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...


We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our
scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the
mission
ok.


It would be a matter of priorities, the night bombers got Gee first
because they needed it more and the Pathfinder Squadrons had
priority within Bomber Command

Keith

How did nighttime losses compare to daylight? I've googled a couple
strings looking for both RAF and 8th AF etc. stats, but so far all I've
found are some general statements that, as German nightfighter weapons
and tactics improved, the percentages became roughtly comparable.

ubject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "Emmanuel Gustin"
Date: 3/10/04 2:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our
scopes.

It is even worse: The Germans were using GEE well before
you were. For 'Steinbock', the German bombing offensive
against Britain in the first four months of 1944, German
bombers were equipped with GEE receivers, either salvaged
from British bombers ('Hyperbel') or German-made ('Truhe').
That close to the transmitters, GEE signals were of course
hardly affected by German jamming. The British were unaware
of it until they discovered oddly familiar-looking equipment
in a shot-down German bomber...

'Steinbock' was a failure nevertheless, the RAF's nightfighter
defenses were too strong.

--
Emmanuel Gustin
Emmanuel.Gustin -rem@ve- skynet dot be
Flying Guns Page: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/



Interesting. Do you know where the German Gee transmitters were located? Were
there also three of them?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , Jim Doyle
writes

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Jim Doyle
writes

snip

... if only it worked! British tactics against Germany were optimised to
the
conditions of the day, with the subsequent development of nav aids, dead
reckoning was superseded and bombing became much more accurate and
aggressive.

In the latter stages of the war, in my opinion, Area Bombing became
unjustifiable before it ceased. Dresden is a prime example, though there
are
many who believe this to be a show of strength to the Russians, it just
simply didn't deserve the tremendous volume of bombs metered out.

Letter to the Sunday Telegraph. I forgot to note the date.

As a correspondent pointed out, Dresden was bombed because it was a
military target. (Letters Feb 20). The city's destiny was sealed at the
Yalta conference (on Feb 4 1945) and, as Winston Churchill's
interpreter, I heard and watched Stalin with his deputy Chief of Staff,
General Antonov, urgently ask us to bomb roads and railways to stop
Hitler transferring divisions from the West. Antonov stressed the
importance of Dresden as a vital rail junction, saying there was a
"uzel svyazi" - literally, "communications knot".

Churchill and Roosevelt had to agree as they were indebted to Stalin
for relieving pressure on our front during the German Ardennes winter
counter-offensive.

Dresden posed a military threat, granted.

The horrific firestorm created by the incendiaries and napalm killed 100,000
civilians - 1 in 6 of the inhabitants (given there were a large number of
refugees fleeing the advancing Red Army). The message was clear to Stalin,
even if the assault was at his request.

I think he got the message much earlier, after Hamburg et al.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In message , Keith Willshaw
writes

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Snip

Every time I think of those guys up there I am in awe of their
incredible courage and determination under near impossible conditions.
BTW, did
they even carry driftmeters?


Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

The Dambusters dropped flare floats into the North Sea and got a drift
angle from the rear gunner.

After that they map read...

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In message , ArtKramr
writes


snip

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the mission
ok.

I used Gee III once, in a Javelin. Trouble was by the time I'd lined up
the pips and plotted onto a chart we were 60 miles further on...

450 knots does that.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"David Windhorst" wrote in message
...
How did nighttime losses compare to daylight? I've googled a couple
strings looking for both RAF and 8th AF etc. stats, but so far all I've
found are some general statements that, as German nightfighter weapons
and tactics improved, the percentages became roughtly comparable.


The only possible answer is that it varied depending on
when and where. The Berlin raids in late 1943 were
much more dangerous than raids on the Ruhr.

Over the course of the war I recall that loss rates for the
RAF and USAAF were approx the same. By late 44
and into 45 the RAF were making a lot of daylight raids too.

Keith

ubject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 3/10/04 3:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , Keith Willshaw
writes

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Snip

Every time I think of those guys up there I am in awe of their
incredible courage and determination under near impossible conditions.
BTW, did
they even carry driftmeters?


Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

The Dambusters dropped flare floats into the North Sea and got a drift
angle from the rear gunner.

After that they map read...

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


Never saw a driftmeter I didn't love.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer