O&R clarification with remote start

On Jul 29, 4:04*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:



On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris

On Jul 29, 3:20*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish.

Darryl

Attempting a 500k diamond distance. It is harder to do it as an O&R
than 3 TP but would be a tough challenge in Georgia.
Chris

Doing the south 125K to the 1st turn point, north 250K to the second
turn point, and south 125K to the start point, would count as a 500K
task. Just not a 500K O&R.

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. *But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 29, 5:46*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 4:04*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:

On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl

well to me if you can do a remote start along the leg of a triangle
why not on an O&R.
it would make sense to me to go south for 125k, north 250 and back 125
for the finish and call it 500km. *But if that ain't the way it works
then i'll just use the point 5km south as the start and finish.
thanks for everyone's clarification.
chris

The distance for a triangle with a "remote" start only includes the
distance between the three triangle turnpoints. It's a tool that lets
you "jump" into a triangle of certain geometry/position from another
point. In the sense that any extra distance from the remote start/
finish does not count it is analogous to flying to a "remote" start/
finish for an O&R.

If all you want to do is do a diamond goal flight you can do a
triangle -- which meets the closed coarse goal requirement. Just
declare the start/finish point and two waypoints. You then have a
(squished) 2 turnpoint triangle. For badges there is no need to meet
FAI triangle geometry. Which takes us back to where you originally
asked about but I was not clear you were talking about a badge. For
records you need to meet FAI triangle geometry requirements. This is a
common misunderstanding.

A 500km "flat" diamond like this will get you the goal and distance in
one flight.

So are you happy now? But.... go put on a pot of coffee (or two or
three) and spend some time really studying the sporting code more,
because if you've missed this stuff so far there are likely other
things that are going to bite you. And find a good OO who knows this
stuff backwards.

Darryl

On Jul 29, 1:38*pm, chris wrote:
I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

I'll answer your question directly first. No - what you have
proposed is NOT an O&R flight. An O&R flight is defined as a closed
course with two legs. Practically speaking, that's Start --
Turnpoint -- Finish. The Sporting Code is very clear on this.

You are using some old/outdated terminology when you use the term
"remote start". It doesn't exist any more. There is a Start and a
Finish.

What you didn't state is exactly what you are trying to achieve. If
you are trying to break a 500K O&R Record, then your only option is to
find a point 250K or more away from your start/finish. If you are
trying to achieve a Diamond Distance flight, then you have many more
options including a 3 turn point flight. That would mean a Start-
Turnpoint 1- Turnpoint 2-Turnpoint 3- Finish.

The best way to get the official advice is to email the SSA directly
and we will get back to you on your specific circumstances.

Erik Mann (P3)
SSA B&R Committee

Just one more quick clarification:

"3 turnpoints" is NOT the same thing as a "Triangle"! You can declare
up to 3 turnpoints for many distance tasks and there is no requirement
for them to be in the shape of a triangle. So your "Out and Return"
_course_ is possible, just not as an "Out and Return" type
declaration.

As others have suggested, check out the SC3 and this handy booklet on
the SSA website - its long but it describes the various types of tasks
and turnpoints well: http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf
(you may need to read it two or three times for it to all make sense,
but stick with it)

Good luck,

--Noel

On Jul 29, 5:56*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 3:20*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? *For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish.

Darryl

Attempting a 500k diamond distance. *It is harder to do it as an O&R
than 3 TP but would be a tough challenge in Georgia.
Chris

Ah if you are really only trying for a distance (not goal flight) you
don't even need to make the course closed, but doing so can get you
the diamond goal and distance in one flight.

Darryl

On Jul 29, 8:39*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Just one more quick clarification:

"3 turnpoints" is NOT the same thing as a "Triangle"! *You can declare
up to 3 turnpoints for many distance tasks and there is no requirement
for them to be in the shape of a triangle. *So your "Out and Return"
_course_ is possible, just not as an "Out and Return" type
declaration.

As others have suggested, check out the SC3 and this handy booklet on
the SSA website - its long but it describes the various types of tasks
and turnpoints well: *http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf
(you may need to read it two or three times for it to all make sense,
but stick with it)

Good luck,

--Noel

I would really focus on the actual FAI sporting code section 3 and
annex C documents. It is not clear to me how the SSA "summary" of the
rules really helps or why it exists, and its actually helped fuel
confusion on the Glider ID vs. Contest ID confusion as discussed here
before. But keep the forms from the SSA handy to use for your paper
declaration.

Darryl

On Jul 29, 3:20*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:





I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

Here "turnpoint 1" is your home airport? Part of the problem may be
you are confusing some of the nomeclature. Turnpoints are not start or
finish points. A waypoint can be either a start point, a finish point
or a turnpoint (and yes there are some types of flights where you can
use the same waypoint as a different beast if you use it more than
once in the same flight...).

The definition in the Sporting Code for an O&R is very simple.

"OUT AND RETURN FLIGHT: *A CLOSED COURSE having two LEGS."

and

"A CLOSED COURSE has the START and FINISH at the same WAY POINT."

---

Do a little SC3 reading and you should be able to see that at the
broadest level of FAI sporting code a closed course has a start point
(declared or otherwise), a finish point (declared or otherwise) and
one turnpoint (must always be declared). Where you take off from, or
get off tow (if using a declared start point) is not part of the
flight performance, but is documented for other reasons to prove you
made the flight etc., and neither is where you land part of the actual
flight performance (unless for you are using the landing as the
finish). Here you normally declare the finish, that gives you the
benefit as well of finishing at altitude to meet height loss
requirements. The height loss applies from your start point fix to
your finish point fix, not off tow etc.

What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? *For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish. A free out & return distance
is different but I'm guessing this is not what you are doing. For any
declared start/finish points you could fly from off tow to the start
point 550m or 55km, it makes no difference which is why the sporting
code does not talk about "local" and "remote" starts similar to how
you are trying to.

The usual important advice applies --

3. To make the any course actually closed your finish point needs to
be within 1,000m of that, so be careful when using FAI sectors for
start and finish, your actual start and finish point fixes used need
to be within 1 km. The way that is actually spelt out in the sporting
code is the start and finish FAI sector arms for closed courses are
1,000 m in length.

Darryl

And, FWIW, the start and finish can also be a line rather than a
sector. In some situations, that is easier to visualize/construct.
But, the 1000 m constraint is still in play.

p3

On Jul 30, 5:46*am, Papa3 wrote:
On Jul 29, 3:20*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:





On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:

I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

Here "turnpoint 1" is your home airport? Part of the problem may be
you are confusing some of the nomeclature. Turnpoints are not start or
finish points. A waypoint can be either a start point, a finish point
or a turnpoint (and yes there are some types of flights where you can
use the same waypoint as a different beast if you use it more than
once in the same flight...).

The definition in the Sporting Code for an O&R is very simple.

"OUT AND RETURN FLIGHT: *A CLOSED COURSE having two LEGS."

and

"A CLOSED COURSE has the START and FINISH at the same WAY POINT."

---

Do a little SC3 reading and you should be able to see that at the
broadest level of FAI sporting code a closed course has a start point
(declared or otherwise), a finish point (declared or otherwise) and
one turnpoint (must always be declared). Where you take off from, or
get off tow (if using a declared start point) is not part of the
flight performance, but is documented for other reasons to prove you
made the flight etc., and neither is where you land part of the actual
flight performance (unless for you are using the landing as the
finish). Here you normally declare the finish, that gives you the
benefit as well of finishing at altitude to meet height loss
requirements. The height loss applies from your start point fix to
your finish point fix, not off tow etc.

What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? *For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish. A free out & return distance
is different but I'm guessing this is not what you are doing. For any
declared start/finish points you could fly from off tow to the start
point 550m or 55km, it makes no difference which is why the sporting
code does not talk about "local" and "remote" starts similar to how
you are trying to.

The usual important advice applies --

3. To make the any course actually closed your finish point needs to
be within 1,000m of that, so be careful when using FAI sectors for
start and finish, your actual start and finish point fixes used need
to be within 1 km. The way that is actually spelt out in the sporting
code is the start and finish FAI sector arms for closed courses are
1,000 m in length.

Darryl

And, FWIW, the start and finish can also be a line rather than a
sector. * In some situations, that is easier to visualize/construct.
But, the 1000 m constraint is still in play.

p3

And Badge/record start lines are ways 1.000m long so this requirement
is automatically met. I think mistakes with people not properly
closing a closed course happens with FAI sectors used as start and
finish and people missing that then
shortens those arms to 1,000m.

And I've seen the opposite confusion where people do not realize that
a sector OZ for a turnpoint or a sector OZ for a non closed course
start and finish have unlimited arm length. confusion probably
encouraged by settings in popular soaring software. Some pilots also
think the finish/start *have* to happen crossing into or out of the
sector OZ and do not realize that any GPS fix within the sector can be
used (very handy for picking start and finish fixes to meet height
loss requirements).

Darryl



Darryl