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#21
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B-58
FatKat wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: Well the XB-70 was a class above the B58, but the Ruskies may have had something better. Ken What a/c are you referring to? The Tu-128 Fiddler interceptor or the Tu-22 Blinder bomber (both based on the failed Tu-98 Backfin)? Tysbin had its own design based on the NM-1- the RSR: http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/stuff/Bask/mode...ybin_rsr_2.jpg Rob Thanks... IIRC the Ruskies built something similiar to the XB70 though smaller, I'm sorry I couldn't find an online ref. and it was obviously not deployed, it may be rumor. I'll reiterate, "may have had something better". Regards Ken That was the Su-100, a.k.a. "T-4": http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/potty/19.htm Thanks for ref Rob. Claims the T-4 had 4 x 35,000# engines = 140,000# -B-58 had 4x15000# = 60,000 -B-70 6x28000# = 168,000 I don't understand the rationale for the T-4, in the time frame of the early 70's, if that's true, except perhaps as an X-plane. If so the T-4 would be quite more advanced than the B-70 or SR71, with a burst speed well over 2000mph, given the airframe and engines and considering the Ruskies new alot about Mach 3 ducting as the Mig 25 demo'd, it's probably secret. I also had in mind the "Bounder" http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/m-50.htm contemporary with the B-58, M-50,52 total thrust = 112,000#, and more than likely as fast or faster than the B-58. Hmmm, T-4 bears some superficial resemblance, though it apparenly lacks the VG wing-tips and double fin, is smaller and never demonstrated quite as high a speed. I've never heard "compression left" directly associated with the T-4, so if anybody has, I'd love to hear it. Looks like "compression lift" at the front part of the engine pod. The way the pod expands it would produce pressure and compression. And don't ge me started about that nose-droop thing. I think that's neat, converts the wind-screen into an air speed brake. The B-70 used some kind of motorized wing-screen which always seemed more preferable to the big pivoting nose on T-4 which seemed more aesthetically and functionally appealing. Does anybody know what T-4's operating altitude was? Or its mission? I heard that T-4 was designed to strike at enemy warships in waters along the Russian frontier, as opposed to the B-70's strategic strike mission. From the stories floating around the net, it appears that the T-4 was less a Soviet weapon to be used against the West than one to be used by Sukhoi against Tupolev, hinting that Russian aerospace was probably inundated with all sorts of warplanes and making it inevitable that one looking somewhat like one of our own would emerge. One could argue the F-15 is a copy of the Mig-25. In response, the US would have used the XF-108 Rapier as a B-70 escort: ...which is confirmed by everybody else, including WPAFB website, but I've always been skeptical of that given what I've read in Anderson's "To Fly and Fight". While describing his work on the parasite fighter program, he remarks on SAC's traditional aversion to escorts - noting that bomber pros claim that they can go it alone and then pay the price when that proves optimistic. (Anderson gave the Korean experience for B-29's as an example.) Seems to me that the USAF requested the B-70 to have high-speed/-alt performance in order to obviate the need for an escort. So why the F-108? I see the F-108 as a parallel to the CF-105 Arrow, which in a nutshell, were obsoleted by Sputnik, and SAM's. Obvoiusly the manufacturer would float any reason to keep the project, that's their job. Ken |
#22
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B-58
Aha! The good old Scorpion. We were part of a huge simulated invasion of
the West Coast of the U.S. one night. B-47s, B-52s, and B-58s went up into Canada, then West to the Pacific Ocean, about 500 miles off shore. Then we all headed inbound. Only ADC "Trusted Agents" were aware we were really "friendlies" and just testing ADC capability to detect and intercept. We were at sub-sonic optimum altitude and about 50 miles from our planned point to accelerate to mach 2 and climb to 50,000' when my DSO (Defensive Systems Officer) detected a fighter interceptor's radar pinging from our forward left position. We had enough fuel to start mach 2 early so I quickly started to accelerate and climb. The fighter wasn't ready for our more than doubled speed and fell well behind us. We coasted inland just south of San Francisco and turned south down the San Joaquin (sp) valley to Yuma, AZ where we came out of supersonic speeds and altitudes. Never saw hide nor hair of any fighters. -- Darrell R. Schmidt B-58 Hustler History: (see below) http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/ "Big John" wrote in message ... Darrell We couldn't catch you but in a front quarter attack we ran a Pk of about 98%. F-89J and MB-1 Atomic Air to Air Rocket. Big John ````````````````````````````````````````````````` On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:03:39 -0700, "Darrell S" wrote: You are correct. By the time the B-58 became operational the Russian radar and missile defense systems improved to the point that high altitude, mach 2, attacks would have been suicide. The operational tactics changed to high subsonic low altitude attack which made the mach 2 capability of the B-58 relatively unusable for combat. All the design features necessary for mach 2 flight such as the narrow fuselage made it impractical to add terrain avoidance radar for IFR low altitude. We practiced our low altitude high speed tactics in Oil Burner routes (now Olive Branch) at 600 knots on the deck. Great sport. |
#23
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B-58
wrote: thats right, the pilots were side by side. I recall the fighters that were scrambled in an attempt to shoot them down were Voodoos. I remember them spiraling out of the sky after running out of fuel in the film (carrying thier hapless pilots with them).................Doc Here's a site... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058083/goofs Still a great movie with lot's of good shots, In a way, the goofs are fun, makes you look for them, if you know some stuff. Ken |
#24
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B-58
Darrell
Flew the F-89D, H and J at Hamilton (plus the F2H3 with Navy) '53 to '60. I was the guy who developed and got approved by ADC to use the head on attack.Scared a lot of people when I proposed it and laid out the safety parameters involved. We would sit at 20K and GCI would vector us to the target track and we would turn down track with no off set from head on. The RO would lock on and at 20 seconds to go (indicated on pilots Radar scope up front) We would just pull up and center the dot (target) in ring and computer launched missile at correct time. The guy your RO saw on his scope had probably fired one of his two missles (we launched way out) and was being vectored to another target. Probably the same exercise, SAC sent an observer to Squadrons to watch. He was a B-47 driver and said he never saw any of us when he flew over San Fran.We were under his nose ) I flew first mission (got a kill) and came down and ran the NADAR (tape cartridge that recorded our radar). SAC observer asked how we were killing all the SAC birds and we gave him our tactics. Shortly thereafter SAC went from high and fast to as low as possible. On your defensive Radar. It was optimized for the Russian Radar and didn't do a good job on our radar (both GCI and Interceptor). Can't remember any time my RO couldn't burn through and get a lock and we got a kill. The Genie and head on attack, saved the Scorpion as it was about as fast as my daughter could peddle her scoter ) I got kills on all the SAC birds and also U-2's (way up there but not very fast). If you get around Houston I'll buy you a cool one and we can talk the fine points of this Interceptor operation Would have enjoyed flying the '58 but sometimes some have to do the dirty work ) All the best Big John `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````````````````````````` On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:15:49 -0700, "Darrell S" wrote: Aha! The good old Scorpion. We were part of a huge simulated invasion of the West Coast of the U.S. one night. B-47s, B-52s, and B-58s went up into Canada, then West to the Pacific Ocean, about 500 miles off shore. Then we all headed inbound. Only ADC "Trusted Agents" were aware we were really "friendlies" and just testing ADC capability to detect and intercept. We were at sub-sonic optimum altitude and about 50 miles from our planned point to accelerate to mach 2 and climb to 50,000' when my DSO (Defensive Systems Officer) detected a fighter interceptor's radar pinging from our forward left position. We had enough fuel to start mach 2 early so I quickly started to accelerate and climb. The fighter wasn't ready for our more than doubled speed and fell well behind us. We coasted inland just south of San Francisco and turned south down the San Joaquin (sp) valley to Yuma, AZ where we came out of supersonic speeds and altitudes. Never saw hide nor hair of any fighters. |
#25
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B-58
Interesting, John. Some Soviet radar equipment was captured during one of
the mid-east conflicts and they had it at Eglin AFB, FL for evaluation. My crew went down there to do ECM runs against it at night low level in the late 60s.. A Soviet trawler was off-shore in the Gulf watching it all. I was informed that while our defensive ECM worked pretty well against our fighters it actually helped the Soviet radar's ability to track us. The Hustlers' ECM didn't scramble or jam the radar return, it operated below their "waste gate" and "walked off" our radar return to cause our radar return to show us in a different location than we were actually in. I "heard" an early interceptor was making a practice intercept on a B-58 that was using its ECM and had the autopilot engaged for an automatic intercept. When the Hustler target "walked off" and then re-appeared in a different place without breaking the lock-on the fighter interceptor overstressed its wings trying to stay on target and was destroyed. That might have been BS. But we found it actually helped the Russian radar find us. -- Darrell R. Schmidt B-58 Hustler History: (see below) http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/ "Big John" wrote in message news Darrell Flew the F-89D, H and J at Hamilton (plus the F2H3 with Navy) '53 to '60. I was the guy who developed and got approved by ADC to use the head on attack.Scared a lot of people when I proposed it and laid out the safety parameters involved. We would sit at 20K and GCI would vector us to the target track and we would turn down track with no off set from head on. The RO would lock on and at 20 seconds to go (indicated on pilots Radar scope up front) We would just pull up and center the dot (target) in ring and computer launched missile at correct time. The guy your RO saw on his scope had probably fired one of his two missles (we launched way out) and was being vectored to another target. Probably the same exercise, SAC sent an observer to Squadrons to watch. He was a B-47 driver and said he never saw any of us when he flew over San Fran.We were under his nose ) I flew first mission (got a kill) and came down and ran the NADAR (tape cartridge that recorded our radar). SAC observer asked how we were killing all the SAC birds and we gave him our tactics. Shortly thereafter SAC went from high and fast to as low as possible. On your defensive Radar. It was optimized for the Russian Radar and didn't do a good job on our radar (both GCI and Interceptor). Can't remember any time my RO couldn't burn through and get a lock and we got a kill. The Genie and head on attack, saved the Scorpion as it was about as fast as my daughter could peddle her scoter ) I got kills on all the SAC birds and also U-2's (way up there but not very fast). If you get around Houston I'll buy you a cool one and we can talk the fine points of this Interceptor operation Would have enjoyed flying the '58 but sometimes some have to do the dirty work ) All the best Big John `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````````````````````````` On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:15:49 -0700, "Darrell S" wrote: Aha! The good old Scorpion. We were part of a huge simulated invasion of the West Coast of the U.S. one night. B-47s, B-52s, and B-58s went up into Canada, then West to the Pacific Ocean, about 500 miles off shore. Then we all headed inbound. Only ADC "Trusted Agents" were aware we were really "friendlies" and just testing ADC capability to detect and intercept. We were at sub-sonic optimum altitude and about 50 miles from our planned point to accelerate to mach 2 and climb to 50,000' when my DSO (Defensive Systems Officer) detected a fighter interceptor's radar pinging from our forward left position. We had enough fuel to start mach 2 early so I quickly started to accelerate and climb. The fighter wasn't ready for our more than doubled speed and fell well behind us. We coasted inland just south of San Francisco and turned south down the San Joaquin (sp) valley to Yuma, AZ where we came out of supersonic speeds and altitudes. Never saw hide nor hair of any fighters. |
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