MMU 5 DP lost comm question

A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey

How about Direct SBJ, pick up V3 and be on your way
"Andrey Serbinenko" wrote in message
...

A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey

pgbnh wrote:
How about Direct SBJ, pick up V3 and be on your way
"Andrey Serbinenko" wrote in message
...
A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey




I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to
the appropriate minimum IFR altitude for that sector or MSA or whatever
was appropriate, if higher than the current vectoring alt. The EAC time
is probably to get clear of inbound traffic above, so going there right
away may cause ATC to have to reroute traffic over you.

You would probably be ok to proceed direct on a 45 deg intercept heading
to V3 if that made more sense then direct SBJ. I think that in a comm
failure situation where options are presented, you are ok as long as you
act reasonably and don't head off in odd unexpected directions. ATC is
going to deduce what you are doing pretty quickly and make allowances.

John

On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
wrote:


Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead
since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd
likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ
R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY.

I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to

I have two doubts about that:

First, it seems to contradict item iii of the following reg:
FAR Sec. 91.185 - IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
-----------
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:

(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in .91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or

(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
-----------

It lists "expected" along with everything else, and doesn't mention anywhere
that you should wait for the EFC time to pass before using it.

Secondly, while being radar-vectored I have never had to wait for ten minutes:
three-four minutes maximum, which makes me think that staying low for that
long may not in fact be desirable. In particular, staying at 2000 feet while
maneuvering in southerly direction for too long can put me in close proximity
to TEB ILS rw 6 approach path.

You would probably be ok to proceed direct on a 45 deg intercept heading
to V3 if that made more sense then direct SBJ. I think that in a comm

I agree with that. My only concern would be the fact that the DP is
"obstacle", and it mandates making a turn to 160 after getting to 2000 feet,
presumably keeping me away from something. But it doesn't specify for how
long I should stay on that heading before resuming enroute navigation.



Andrey

In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
foolish...





On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
wrote:


A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey

Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal.

There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified
wrote in message
news

In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
foolish...





On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
wrote:


A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey

"Andrey Serbinenko" wrote in message
...

A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?


No.



If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?


The DP states "....as per notes or via vectors to assigned route/fix." The
note for BIGGY states, "departures expect vectors via SBJ/SBJ R-237." Looks
to me like SBJ is part of the clearance.



Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


I'd proceed direct to SBJ and join V3, maintain 2000 until BIGGY, climb to
2500, climb to 4000 ten minutes after departure.

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...

I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead
since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd
likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ
R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY.


What's the direct part?

"pgbnh" wrote in message
...

Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
illegal.


Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?