Electronic horizon?

Marc Ramsey wrote:

Stefan wrote:

Definitely not. If it "just happens" to you, then something is *very*
wrong with your flying tactics and possibly even with your attitude.
(It may "just happen" at night, but I rarely find thermals at night.)
In all real world situations where you might get trapped, there is
always plenty of time to spin up that gyro.


I recently reviewed an article from a pilot flew into what became a
measured 30 knot climb (~15 m/s) below one decent looking cumulus in the
midst of an area of 70+% cloud cover. It took about 30 seconds to go
from a normal (for this area) 10+ knot climb well below cloud base to
being inside the cloud. Nothing much wrong with his tactics or
attitude, he just didn't realize that he had hooked the "big one" until
it was too late to escape the lift.

How long does it take to spin up a gyro?

My 1 minute turn rate T&B will provide useful guidance after about 3 or
4 seconds from power on, and the red flag disappears after about 6
seconds. I suspect that would be fast enough in the incident you
mention, but I can't be sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Marc Ramsey wrote:

Nothing much wrong with his tactics or
attitude, he just didn't realize that he had hooked the "big one" until
it was too late to escape the lift.

Obviously yes. (Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that I'm perfect.
Actually, I've made very dumb mistakes.)

How long does it take to spin up a gyro?

30 Seconds is plenty enough for the needle.

Stefan

If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it ????

David Smith

At 06:06 05 September 2005, Bumper wrote:
Tom,

The Trutrac needs only 3 seconds from switch-on to
providing good info. It
doesn't matter if it's level or cranked over in a steep
turn. Really pretty
amazing and nothing at all like turning on a mechanical
needle and ball or
turn coordinator and then waiting for it to erect properly
if already in a
turn.

Since I have both a Garmin 196 and Trutrack in the
ASH26E, I've compared
them to each other. Either will keep an experienced
pilot right side up in
IMC, or allow one to do a 180 etc, I prefer the display
on Trutrack by a
slight margin as the response is a bit faster than
Garmin's panel page.

Both are good to have, as there's nothing wrong with
redundancy. If I had to
pick one, it would be the Garmin, even though the display
is slower. The
Garmin gives more data, including ground speed. Good
to have if the pitot
ices up. 'Course if that happened, one would probably
have other concerns
too.

bumper


'Tom' wrote in message
roups.com...
Just be sure to have your T&B on ALL of the time;
you will not have
time to turn it on when you need it.

I prefer an aviation GPS with an HSI display.

Tom

David Smith wrote:

If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it ????

My experiments with GPS for turn indication showed success depends very
much on the wind strength: below 20 knots, it's probably OK; above 30
knots, it's definitely not.

In strong winds, the heading changes displayed become very sensitive to
turns when flying upwind, and very insensitive when flying downwind. The
more wind, the worse it gets. This quite different from a gyro
instrument, which has the same sensitivity regardless of the wind.
Perhaps a pilot could practice and become adept at it, and maybe, maybe,
in smooth air it's not a problem, even in strong winds.

Since wind is a always feature of wave flying, I do not want to rely a
GPS to save my butt during an encounter with clouds. I have a T&B that I
practice with periodically, though I've never come close to entering a
cloud. Other club members have, however.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I've tried my Compaq Aero with GNII to see how well
I could stay straight and while it may be better than
nothing it sure isn't great. When set to the minimum
scale, between the short trailing track length and
the frequency, it is relatively slow to show banking
change.


At 16:48 09 September 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
David Smith wrote:

If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it
????

My experiments with GPS for turn indication showed
success depends very
much on the wind strength: below 20 knots, it's probably
OK; above 30
knots, it's definitely not.

In strong winds, the heading changes displayed become
very sensitive to
turns when flying upwind, and very insensitive when
flying downwind. The
more wind, the worse it gets. This quite different
from a gyro
instrument, which has the same sensitivity regardless
of the wind.
Perhaps a pilot could practice and become adept at
it, and maybe, maybe,
in smooth air it's not a problem, even in strong winds.

Since wind is a always feature of wave flying, I do
not want to rely a
GPS to save my butt during an encounter with clouds.
I have a T&B that I
practice with periodically, though I've never come
close to entering a
cloud. Other club members have, however.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

David Smith wrote:

If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it ????

Why don't you (and everybody else who is wondering) just go and try it?
You'll be surprized how fast things develop in a modern slippery glider!

Here is how we teach and train cloud flying: The student sits in the
back seat of a (properly equipped) two seater, the instructor in the
front. Then the outside view from the back seat is completely obscured
by a kind of "curtain". Very easy to build and install such a courtain
yourself. Turn on the gyros, close that curtain and there you go!
There's no reason why you couldn't try this with any instructor you
know, and certainly an interesting experience.

BTW, our cloud flying syllabus is the following:
- Fly straight and level on a defined course for at least one minute.
- Fly a 180 and hit the reverse course in "reasonable" time. Done on
several different courses. (Needs some calculation and an understanding
on compass error while flying.)
- Climb in a thermal and exit on a predefined course.
- Recover from unusual attitudes the instructor has brought you in.

If it's only for that emergency descent, then lesson 1 would suffice.

Stefan

"David Smith" wrote in message
...
If Bumper is correct and the Garmin 196 GPS driven
attitude display can be used for a emergency cloud
descent then presumably the turning glider on a Winpilot
screen will give the same information, or will it ????

David Smith


I agree with the others, I wouldn't want to rely on my trusty Garmin 196 in
some of the typically strong Minden wave conditions I've seen. With the
glider doing zero ground speed, moving sideways or even backwards over the
ground, the GPS map gets all confused, bearing little resemblance to the
real world while trying to show track-up. I can imagine the GPS panel page
would give up and let the "simulated gyro" tumble!

I knew there was a good reason to have that TruTrack too . . . even though,
like the GPS map, I get all confused when I see that little "no pitch" sign!

bumper

Well, it happened to a friend of mine. Lenticular wave clouds can form
with little, or no, warning. I've seen it happen. Of course, you can
believe otherwise and leave your T&B off. And maybe, just maybe, you
will be right.

Tom