HELP! To buy or not...rough 63 aztec for $25,000

I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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Buy it for $25K put $100K into it and you will have a $75K airplane.

Well, David, only you can answer this question: Are you ready for a
multi-year headache in exchange for perhaps saving yourself fairly
significant money?

If the answer is "yes", go for it.

But be prepared for a long slog in the mud.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

("david" wrote)
snip
25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.


Saw this question a few years ago:
If the plane was given to you (free) tomorrow, what would you do with it?

Oh boy, I got a "free" plane with....[insert laundry list of liabilities here]
Still a good deal?

BTW, I've only seen Aztecs from the ground - I like em.

Oh, here's the other rec.aviation question that often comes up - What's your
projected average mission? Will something else (maybe) fill the bill? Or is the
saying fit the bill?

Good luck, keep us posted.

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

The risks in such a transaction are HUGE! If you LIKE fiddling with
planes, have lots of time available and a very supportive shop to work
with, there is a chance you won't lose TOO much... the chance that you
will have a satisfactory plane without things continually going wrong
are slim, and the chance you can sell it at a profit is ZERO.

People who do take on such a project do it as a pastime, and hope their
pastime doesn't cost them TOO much.

Rich

david wrote:
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition.


Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?)

Since it cost me $12,000 to paint my Skyhawk, this seems a little low for an
Aztec.


www.Rosspilot.com

david wrote in message ...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken.

What is your long range plan with the plane? Keep it? Sell it? This
will determine whether or not this kind of investment is valuable.
Although there are exceptions it is usually better to purchase a plane
in the condition you want versus buying a fix-it upper and shelling
out $10000s in the repair/refinishing process. However, the $25k
purchase price makes this worth evaluating.

If you completely overhaul the plane and make everything in it new -
depending on airframe time, you probably have a market value $100k
airplane. Skip a bit here/there and you probably have a $75k
airplane, so you have a $50k budget to work with.

Start with a few of the basics: What is the airframe time? Are all
ADs complied with (should look at the SBs too) - did you have an
independent mechanic verify this? It can cost a 1000s if not 10000s
to comply with ADs and SBs. Is there damage history to the plane (and
is it recent?) - if so this will subtract significantly from the end
market value.

A cracked cylyinder probably won't cost $5k to repair, but I'm
guessing these engines will need more work than the $5k to be/stay
airworthy. A safe bet would be to expect a MOH in the near future...
Factoryengines.com lists an overhauled IO540 at $22k each. What are
the compressions? How long ago was the MOH? How long since the mags
were overhauled? How about the ignition wiring and plugs? I think
most Lycomings are a 12 year or 2000hr TBO.

New paint on a twin will be about $10k. Hopefully they will not find
corrosion when the paint is peeled.

A nice interior on a twin will be $10k. $5k if you go with fabrics
only (no leather) and do not replace the interior plastics. New
windows would be $2k installed.

Avionics are a wild card and are up to you. You can easily spend
$30-40k on a panel. However, for the most bang for the buck, you
could add 1 GNS430 for about $10k installed and have IFR certified
GPS/VOR/LOC/GS. The plane would probably need a good audio
panel/intercom, which would be $3500 installed. Autopilots
particularly older ones can be troublesome to repair/maintain - you
may want to consider purchasing a new AP. An STEC-30 (altitude hold)
autopilot will cost about $10k installed. You could look on Ebay to
find a used KX-155 and KI209 as a backup NAV/COM.

New gyros might be a consideration, as would be a reconfiguration of
the panel to a standard T instrument layout. This would be another
$2-3K.

Another thing to consider - expect LONG downtimes during your
refurbishment. Probably a month (at least) for your major overhauls.
A month for the P&I. A month for the avionics and gyro work. Plus a
few more months to get various gremlins worked out. That would be a
best case... Paying $10k/yr insurance plus hangar, plus cost of
capital, plus maintenance bills really sucks when you are not getting
to fly. On that note, it might make sense to only use the plane
privately for the first year while you are doing the rehab. No sense
in paying commercial insurance rates if the plane is going to sit in
the maintenance shop.

Last, you mentioned an $80/hr operating rate for the Aztec. I assume
you mean the fuel only cost. Most light twins cost about 2.5x the
hourly fuel cost to operate.

Good luck!
-Nathan

Doesn't sound like a good first plane to me. First, you have no idea of
what everything will cost to fix. Second you seem concerned with the cost
of the fuel burn, this will turn out to be a trivial expense in the scheme
of things. The only way it might make sense is if you NEED a twin, can fly
it "as is" (after replacing the cylinder) and plan to sell it in a few years
cheap.

Mike
MU-2

"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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Add a newsgroup interface to your website today.

"Rosspilot" wrote in message ...
Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?)

Since it cost me $12,000 to paint my Skyhawk, this seems a little low for an
Aztec.

Ouch, it's only costing me about 6K to have the Navion painted. Of course,
I'm doing it in a rather low cost area of the country.

I agree completely with your conclusions- a new owner will never recover the
full value of investments in refurbishing a beat airplane, 20-30cents on a
dollar may be close.

However, your estimates on the cost of repairs seem a bit low. Paint on a
twin for $10,000 is kind of a budget job. For that amount of money you can
expect the screws and panels to be painted over (not removed prior to
paint), as well as no extras like painting the gear legs or wheel wells.
Don't be surprised if there are a fair number of paint runs or overspray. A
top notch job, with complete body work, stripping, primer, paint, and
replacement of all hardware with stainless will run closer to $20,000.

A new interior with leather, new carpeting, and a cleanup of the headliner
will run more like $15,000. You might do an Airtex home job for around
$5,000 if you have the time.

New IO-540's will probably be on the order of $30-35,000 each, particularly
with new hoses and accessories, unless they're turbocharged, which could go
up to around $45,000 each. Don't forget prop overhauls as well.

New boots will be around $25,000-30,000 as well. Avionics can be the biggest
variable. An autopilot (nearly a necessity for flying a twin in weather) is
going to be more like $15-20,000. The S-TEC 30 is a good basic unit (I have
one in my single with altitude hold), but may not adequate for a plane flown
frequently in IMC.

I have experienced most of the above over the last two years that I have
owned a B-55, except the engines. Instead of boots, I went with TKS, which
provides known icing certification by STC. Unlike boots, there is no
maintenance required, and they will not need replacement unless you run the
wing into something. New thicker windows were installed by Beryl D'Shannon,
and paint was done by Dial Eastern in Ohio. The plane is now at Airmod for a
complete leather interior.

From personal experience, I will never recover even a small fraction of my
investments. This approach is OK if you plan on keeping the plane for a
while, but if you want to trade up every few years, a better approach might
be to find something that comes closest to meeting your needs at a good
price, then selling up when you want more speed or room.