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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 12th 10, 06:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Robert Moore
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Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

" wrote in news:f8ca37ee-3735-48ea-
:

On Mar 12, 9:24*am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:


There are bunches of IAPs with timing tables but no DME. *There is a
buffer in TERPs for timing errors. *But, you obviously don't understand
any of this.


Show me one that doesn't have a DME and NO intersecting radial or
intersection to identify the MAP.

I would be interested in this.

Try this one
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/1003/00532IL12.PDF

You see...I learned to fly way back when DME was a rareity and all of the
approaches were like this one.

Bob Moore
Ads
  #23  
Old March 12th 10, 08:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

wrote:

On Mar 12, 9:41 am, Robert Moore wrote:

" wrote



It's pretty clear that we're not supposed to go below the published MDA on
a non-precision approach, unless we can see enough to descend and land. The
MAP has nothing to do with it except that we can't continue the approach to
land after reaching the MAP.



Bob,

Bear with me on this. Are you suggesting or saying it's ok to go
below MDA BEFORE the MAP????

I was taught NEVER to descend below DH for the ILS or MDA before the
MAP for non precision approaches such as VOR alpha or LOC.

And, where there is no DME?

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/1003/05105VA.PDF

My point to Sam was that timing alone with wind consideration is not
enough to descend below MDA which again I was taught never descend
below BEFORE the MAP.


You were poorly trained, at least as to MAPs based on timing.

DME is the constant factor to finding MAP on this approach, not timing
since there are no intersecting radials to identify MAP.


If DME were mandatory for the MAP then there would not be a timing table.

Timing helps but since GS will vary based on wind conditions, timing
ALONE shouldn't be used to determine MAP.

This is what I was taught for what it's worth.


Not worth much, sadly.
  #24  
Old March 12th 10, 08:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Robert Moore wrote:

" wrote


Bear with me on this. Are you suggesting or saying it's ok to go
below MDA BEFORE the MAP????



MAP has NOTHING to do with MDA

I was taught NEVER to descend below DH for the ILS or MDA before the
MAP for non precision approaches such as VOR alpha or LOC.



DA IS the MAP for ILS, You may descend below the MDA ANYTIME that you
see the runway and can execute a safe landing. Most of the time, the
MAP for a VOR/LOC is over the end of the runway...how are you expected
to land from about 500' over the end of the runway?

My point to Sam was that timing alone with wind consideration is not
enough to descend below MDA which again I was taught never descend
below BEFORE the MAP.



You were taught incorrectly. Timing alone is sufficient to define the
MAP, but that has NOTHING to do with descending from the MDA.

Timing helps but since GS will vary based on wind conditions, timing
ALONE shouldn't be used to determine MAP.



Not what the FAA says. Did you read my entire post?

This is what I was taught for what it's worth.



Better get a better instructor. Of course when one thinks about the
Colgon Air crash, that might be kinda hard to do these days.

The FAA Instrument Flying Handbook is available from
http://faasafety.gov/

Bob Moore
CFIIing since 1970


Problem is, the CFI-Is of today are "children of the magenta line."
Many of them were not taught the fundamentals of approach procedures.
  #25  
Old March 12th 10, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,325
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote:

On Mar 9, 8:31 pm, Padraig wrote:

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out why the ILS or LOC Rwy 9 KJZI requires DME,
per the notes. Any ideas? I don't see where any of the fixes can't
be determined by dual VORs.

Thanks,
Padraig



Sorry, here's the procedure.

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files...f/05354IL9.PDF


I got an answer from the friendlies. The ALD radial is restricted below
6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. I pointed out that charting the
ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is
misleading.
  #26  
Old March 12th 10, 10:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen[_2_]
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Posts: 18
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On 3/12/2010 11:44 AM, Sam Spade wrote:
Problem is, the CFI-Is of today are "children of the magenta line."
Many of them were not taught the fundamentals of approach procedures.


Perhaps I was just lucky. I've trained under three different CFIIs,
and they were all very good. In fact that only one I got that didn't
seem to know what he should was the owner of one of the training
facilities who gave me my first Instrument practical test.
  #27  
Old March 13th 10, 12:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 12, 11:39*am, Robert Moore wrote:

Try this onehttp://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/1003/00532IL12.PDF

You see...I learned to fly way back when DME was a rareity and all of the
approaches were like this one.

Bob Moore


Thanks Bob.

I'm all for learning inspite of what Sam and Mark thinks.

I guess I take the conservative approach and just don't dip below
MDA. I was also told for checkride that I couldn't go below MDA
before MAP or it's a bust. (VOR alpha at KMBO is my most common non
precision approach) so that stuck out in my mind.

It's been describe to me as dive and drive. Dive down to MDA as soon
as you can, and drive it in at MDA to MAP. Go below it before MAP and
it's a bust for checkride.
  #29  
Old March 13th 10, 12:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Posts: 838
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 12, 5:21*pm, Mark Hansen wrote:

That's just simply not true. You say your willing to learn. Just read
the regulations already.


Thats your opinion Mark.

 




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