OT-Killing Pop-ups as a webmaster

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message


Hey, I know how to hold a screwdriver. May I do your annual on your
plane?

Sorry for sounding harsh ...

You don't sound harsh. You're just being an ass (as usual, I might add).
It's not like he's working on somebody else's site now, is it? The only
business he risks with his web site is his own, isn't it? Since that's the
case, why not be polite about *suggesting* improvements (you know, something
we like to call "constructive criticism").

In the meantime, perhaps you should avoid his site so you don't muddy your
PC with his HTML and JS.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
_______________

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:48:38 GMT, John T wrote:

The only
business he risks with his web site is his own, isn't it?

true

Since that's the
case, why not be polite about *suggesting* improvements (you know, something
we like to call "constructive criticism").

well, Jay comes and asks questions and asks for suggestions.

There were suggestions like "validate your site", "don't use Frontpage",
"it is not the best idea to use JS in the navigation", "there is crappy
code in the bottom of the page"

_I_ call that constructive, YMMV

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

you compare one Microsoft crap with another Microsoft crap. Microsoft is
NOT standard

Wow. Talk about tilting at windmills. (That's a "Don Quixote" reference,
in case it doesn't translate well....)

The score is 98 to 2, and you still think Microsoft hasn't won the OS war?

You are, at best, incurably optimistic.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:53:44 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

you compare one Microsoft crap with another Microsoft crap. Microsoft is
NOT standard

Wow. Talk about tilting at windmills. (That's a "Don Quixote" reference,
in case it doesn't translate well....)

it reached the target.

The score is 98 to 2, and you still think Microsoft hasn't won the OS war?

hm, what has an OS to do with internet, esp. WWW?

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

Since '97?

To be "accurate" you have to both validate AND check with the entire series
of browsers (all types, all versions). Validation doesn't help you solve
browser bugs!

One thing you can to to ease the testing burden is to mine the logs for the
existing site (if any, or a similar audience if not) and see what browsers
(and versions) visitors are using. Then you can test what 99.9% of visitors
use and hope for the best for the rest.

On large projects there is a complete specification including the testing
plan. By the time I make the proposal I have a pretty good feel for what
the client wants and specify the testing plan accordingly. Some want as
cheap as possible and could deal with IE-only compatibility, others want the
99.9% or better level and are willing to pay for it.


"Jeff" wrote in message ...
Been doing this since 1997, I dont bother with that validate stuff, I dont
think
its very accurate.
I just check pages with different browsers and if they load fine I am
happy.


Peter Gottlieb wrote:

I have had good luck with Proxomitron for blocking pop-ups. If I had to
live with pop-ups all the time I would probably end up hardly using the
net.
There are other good blockers out there also.

Please, please, PLEASE do *NOT* use his page as an example of how to
code
HTML. It is a total mess internally. The "table" you are referring to
is a
long string of erroneous closing tags for tables and table elements that
aren't open. It's lucky this page displays at all.

When you make a web page it should pass validation. Here's one to try:
http://www.w3schools.com/site/site_validate.asp . Pages that validate
properly stand a much better chance of working on different platforms
(PC,
Mac, Linux) with different browsers (IE, NS, Opera, etc). Any sites I
make,
or have made for me, must validate.

Peter

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:svEtb.3269$Ue4.933@fed1read01...
more OT..

Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

which "Theme/Style" did you use to create the left menu with the hover
button added... or was it some other java script you picked up and
inserted.. also there seems to be a rather large "table" at the bottom
of
the main page.. you can see it in the source code.. but it does not
display
on the web..

BTW.. I did not get the "pop up", but I have most pop ups disabled via
Norton and MS IE. I tend to only get the MS Popups now..

Bill T
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:UdBtb.10159$Dw6.66595@attbi_s02...
I changed some of the metafiles (or "meta tags") in my website this
afternoon, emphasizing "hotels" more. I did this in an effort to
get
search
engines to "see" our site more clearly, and (hopefully) move us up a
few
notches in the "results".

Well, something worked. Within an hour I had acquired a "pop-up" ad
that
now shows up every time I open my website. (I assume you ALL see
this,
right?) It appears to be "keying" on the "hotels" meta tag? (See
it --
and
hopefully our site -- at www.AlexisParkInn.com )

As most of you know, I'm learning HTML on the fly here -- so excuse
the
potentially dumb question, but: Is there anything I can do from the
webmaster's side to eliminate this kind of "pop-up parasite"?

Thanks in advance...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...

this has nothing to do with elitism. Your point of view is simple
ingnorance.



Jay said that he is learning.
His page looks good, simple, not a lot of flashy crap like a lot of other
pages.
His page loads fast and has no errors.

Back off!
You were a beginner too at one point...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...


well, Jay comes and asks questions and asks for suggestions.

There were suggestions like "validate your site", "don't use Frontpage",
"it is not the best idea to use JS in the navigation", "there is crappy
code in the bottom of the page"

_I_ call that constructive, YMMV


CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is the way the criticism is worded.

Sounds like to me that most people have been a little harsh on Jay.

That's NOT constructive criticism.

"Chuck" writes:
There were suggestions like "validate your site", "don't use Frontpage",
"it is not the best idea to use JS in the navigation", "there is crappy
code in the bottom of the page"
_I_ call that constructive, YMMV
CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is the way the criticism is worded.

I beg to differ, but I think that the difference between constructive
and destructive criticism is this:
Destructive criticism just points out what is bad (as in, for examle,
"your HTML code sucks").
Constructive criticism not only points out weaknesses, but also offers
help as to how to avoid or alleviate those weaknesses (as in, for
example, "your HTML code sucks, because you are using an inferior tool
to produce it; if you use this other tool, your code will be better").

In my book, the wording of the criticism may be wise or not-so-wise,
in terms of the probability of getting across the point of the
criticism, but it does not make a difference as to whether the
criticism is constructive or destructive. Just my $.02.

Sounds like to me that most people have been a little harsh on Jay.

That may be, but IMHO also has nothing to do with whether or not the
criticism is constructive or not (and, BTW, even less with whether or
not the criticism is justified or not).

Regarding the original topic, Jay, I personally find your site easy to
navigate and not overly flashy, so from my perspective, thumbs-up with
regard to ergonomy. Furthermore, your page is usable with my trusty
w3m web browser, which does not support any JavaScript, let alone any
fancier stuff, and better yet, your page is also decently useful in
text mode, which earns top marks on my list. ;-) However, I also think
that the HTML code that FrontPage creates is crappy and a waste of
resources, in the sense that a lookalike web page could be created
with less effort in terms of network bandwidth or computing power. (I
realize that one might argue that nowadays, anybody without a DSL
flatrate and a 3 GHz processor and 512 MB of RAM is just plain an
old-fashioned fart who lives in the past, but then again, I also think
that such a line of arguing is a general excuse for all sorts of
purposeless waste of resources, so there is good reason to reject this
argument, IMHO.) So, I second the advise that you ought to do
yourself a favor by getting better HTML editing software.

With regard to the rest of the discussion, I think everybody is
entitled to a little leeway when approaching a new field of
experience. I am sure most of us started our aviation careers with
some pretty bumpy landings (I certainly did ;-)). But we also all
practised until we got decent landings, so as long as you realize that
you can still improve your web page (at least to the point where it
conforms to existing HTML standards), you are good to go, in my
opinion.

Finally, I would like to refer you to a newsgroup where there are
people that have more knowledge on the subject and are more likely to
have valuable thoughts and hints regarding your web page, so maybe
you'd get more qualified comments than mine at
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or even
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design.

Cheers,
Toby.
--
You know you've landed gear-up when it takes full power to taxi.

I understand all of the above Doug... but when the salary paying company is
using MS FP for it's INTRANET and wants you to learn it.. and pays for the
course and a home copy for me to use as I desire..

then learn it I shall.. and make myself more valuable to the company... and
with what I learn.. if I can "convince" the company that they need to move
to Macromedia/Dreamweaver.. or some other "software of the decade" .. then
we will make that costly transition at a later time.. (after promotions and
I am the decision maker to spend the companies $$)

BT

"Doug Vetter" wrote in message
et...
BTIZ wrote:
more OT..

Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

This is such a common topic that I hestiate to respond to it,
particularly because it's so OT, but friends don't let friends use
FrontPage. :-)

May I suggest that you (and Jay, and the remainder of the bipedal world
for that matter) NOT waste your time with FrontPage? It creates
HORRIBLE (meaning, non-standards-compliant) HTML and some of the most
annoying website designs I've ever seen. One particular annoyance is
the use of JAVA for simple menu buttons (!) Uh, talk about an improper
use of the technology.

Some recommendations:

1) Go get a copy of Dreamweaver. You owe it to yourself AND the people
who will visit your site.

http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/

It creates near PERFECT HTML and has a really nice WYSIWYG editor.
Incidentally, you don't NEED Dreamweaver or FrontPage to create a
website...they only eliminate the need to code raw HTML for the vast
majority of sites. And, when you finally discover the wonders of
standards-compliant CSS, Dreamweaver will significantly simplify
creation of CSS styles.

2) Check out the following site, which contains a lot of really good
(and strangely funny) advice on how to create a user-friendly site that
emphasizes content and compatability over flashiness and gimicktry.

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/

For what it's worth, my site was created with Dreamweaver and uses no
flash, java, javascript or any other client-side dependent crap, and the
first line in almost every email I get that references the site is "hey,
you have a really nice site".

And no, I'm not being vain...only providing a personal example of
what's possible with what I'll choose to call a "minimalist, yet
technically competant" approach to website design.

Oh, one other thing. STOP using IE. Go grab the latest Mozilla or
Firebird browsers. They both have pop-up ad blocking built in.

Safe flying,

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

I have no problem with you or anyone using poor (but usable) tools to make
web pages. Obviously a web page with some internal problems problems is
much better than not having a web page.

However! I think it is a very bad idea to take such a sloppily created page
and use it as an example of good HTML code! That's the issue I have.

I did web stuff for something like 10 years and learned (the hard way...)
about browser compatibility.

Peter


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:28Ltb.213582$Tr4.618517@attbi_s03...
Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

Well, Bill, despite Peter's (and others) elitist attitudes toward building
a
web page, this ain't rocket science. Microsoft FrontPage -- for all of
its
quirks -- is head and shoulders above any other web editor I've tried, for
ease of use.

Sure, you can go with Dreamweaver for more "power" -- if you've got a few
weeks of your life to devote to something as stupid as learning a new
program. Nowadays, with PCs as powerful as mainframes once were, there is
simply no reason for a program to be anything but naked-butt simple to
use.
If it's NOT, that's indicative of poor programming design, IMHO.

If you're used to Microsoft Word -- and who isn't nowadays? -- FrontPage
is
very familiar feeling. Much of the data is interchangeable, actually, and
you can share stuff from one program to the other. This really smoothes
the
learning curve, and lets you start producing almost immediately.

which "Theme/Style" did you use to create the left menu with the hover
button added...

My menu style (on the left side of my page) is called "A graphical style
based on the Network theme" -- whatever THAT means. I picked it cuz
everyone says it looks nice! :-)

I write off this whole debate over HTML editors and technique as nothing
more than the "DOS vs Windows" debate, redux. Ten (or was it 15 now?)
years ago, I was the dinosaur, decrying the "stupid PC users who were
using
the new 'Windows' as a crutch". I could be heard grumbling stuff like
"Why don't these idiots learn DOS, instead of forcing this stupid GUI down
our throats?"

Well, I learned that you've gotta keep moving with the technology. Dig
your heels in on something like this, and you'll end up being an expert in
Borland Paradox database design, trapped in a Microsoft Access world.

I know, cuz I AM one of *those*, and it sucks... :-(

And, by the way, FWIW I have deleted all that "table" HTML crap at the
bottom of the opening page. I have no idea what it was, or how it got
there -- nor do I care. It apparently had no effect on performance,
which,
in the end, is all that matters.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"