Metal, low-wing, plansbuilt

I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for. My
choice is metal since I'm more confident with this (my skills)+
(material) combination than with others. Wading through the Kitplanes
directories I have a couple of candidates:

Hummel Bird, UltraCruiser
Mustang Aero Midget, Mustang II
Sonex
Zodiac CH 601, 650, XL
DCS Mini Coupe, Teenie Two
Thorp T-18
Emile Lucas L5, L6, L8, L11/12
Pazmany PL-1, PL-2, PL-4
Thatcher CX-4
(oh yeah, then there is also the Ryan ST-R replica, but that's
probably too much to ask for right now)

Judging from my very limited experience, the Sonex plans seem to be
very detailed and complete, but also steep in price ($600 according to
Kitplanes). Zodiacs, T-18s, and Pazmany designs seem to be very
popular, so the plans can't be all that bad? On the lower end, there
are the Hummel, Mustang and DCS, but they get very little coverage,
apart from the occasional mention of the Hummel Bird or the Teenie Two
by VW aficionados (I do like the Mini Coupe, though). Just looking at
the price, the plans can't be as detailed as others. CX-4, L5, L6 etc.
I've never heard of.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

Oliver

Oliver Arend wrote:
I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for. My
choice is metal since I'm more confident with this (my skills)+
(material) combination than with others. Wading through the Kitplanes
directories I have a couple of candidates:

Hummel Bird, UltraCruiser
Mustang Aero Midget, Mustang II
Sonex
Zodiac CH 601, 650, XL
DCS Mini Coupe, Teenie Two
Thorp T-18
Emile Lucas L5, L6, L8, L11/12
Pazmany PL-1, PL-2, PL-4
Thatcher CX-4
(oh yeah, then there is also the Ryan ST-R replica, but that's
probably too much to ask for right now)

Judging from my very limited experience, the Sonex plans seem to be
very detailed and complete, but also steep in price ($600 according to
Kitplanes). Zodiacs, T-18s, and Pazmany designs seem to be very
popular, so the plans can't be all that bad? On the lower end, there
are the Hummel, Mustang and DCS, but they get very little coverage,
apart from the occasional mention of the Hummel Bird or the Teenie Two
by VW aficionados (I do like the Mini Coupe, though). Just looking at
the price, the plans can't be as detailed as others. CX-4, L5, L6 etc.
I've never heard of.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

Oliver

I don't have experience with the Thatcher CX-4, but it is a pretty ship
and I sat in the cockpit at Oshkosh a couple years ago and it's quite
roomy for a one-holer. I talked with the designer and he sure seems to
be a nice guy. The design looks simple enough without a lot of complex
shapes that one would need to force the aluminum into compliance

http://www.thatchercx4.com/

Oliver Arend wrote:
I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for. My
choice is metal since I'm more confident with this (my skills)+
(material) combination than with others. Wading through the Kitplanes
directories I have a couple of candidates:

Hummel Bird, UltraCruiser
Mustang Aero Midget, Mustang II
Sonex
Zodiac CH 601, 650, XL
DCS Mini Coupe, Teenie Two
Thorp T-18
Emile Lucas L5, L6, L8, L11/12
Pazmany PL-1, PL-2, PL-4
Thatcher CX-4
(oh yeah, then there is also the Ryan ST-R replica, but that's
probably too much to ask for right now)

Judging from my very limited experience, the Sonex plans seem to be
very detailed and complete, but also steep in price ($600 according to
Kitplanes). Zodiacs, T-18s, and Pazmany designs seem to be very
popular, so the plans can't be all that bad? On the lower end, there
are the Hummel, Mustang and DCS, but they get very little coverage,
apart from the occasional mention of the Hummel Bird or the Teenie Two
by VW aficionados (I do like the Mini Coupe, though). Just looking at
the price, the plans can't be as detailed as others. CX-4, L5, L6 etc.
I've never heard of.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

Oliver


You may want to take a look at Bruce King's little plane.

http://www.bkfliers.com/

Dunno if he has plans out for it yet, but wouldn't hurt to check.
It goes together vey much like the Hummel, but has a larger wing
(needed, IMHO) and full (1825?) VW engine.

richard

Oliver Arend wrote:
I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for.
[...]
So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

You listed a lot of good options that I elided - just to make it harder:

A couple years back, I ordered the preview plans for Vans RV-9A for $55.
They are still that price (RV-3 is $45.) As far as I know, the only
difference between Van's Aircraft preview plans and the final set is that
the preview plan drawings are reduced in size by half (I think) - but they
are all there and quite readable. Also, you get the complete build
instructions plus other material. It's a fabulous deal education-wise even
if you design or build something else.

In article
,
Oliver Arend wrote:

I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for. My
choice is metal since I'm more confident with this (my skills)+
(material) combination than with others. Wading through the Kitplanes
directories I have a couple of candidates:

Hummel Bird, UltraCruiser
Mustang Aero Midget, Mustang II
Sonex
Zodiac CH 601, 650, XL
DCS Mini Coupe, Teenie Two
Thorp T-18
Emile Lucas L5, L6, L8, L11/12
Pazmany PL-1, PL-2, PL-4
Thatcher CX-4
(oh yeah, then there is also the Ryan ST-R replica, but that's
probably too much to ask for right now)

Judging from my very limited experience, the Sonex plans seem to be
very detailed and complete, but also steep in price ($600 according to
Kitplanes). Zodiacs, T-18s, and Pazmany designs seem to be very
popular, so the plans can't be all that bad? On the lower end, there
are the Hummel, Mustang and DCS, but they get very little coverage,
apart from the occasional mention of the Hummel Bird or the Teenie Two
by VW aficionados (I do like the Mini Coupe, though). Just looking at
the price, the plans can't be as detailed as others. CX-4, L5, L6 etc.
I've never heard of.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

Oliver

I have had a Mustang II "kit" for the past 25 years and have built some
of it (wings, tail, control surfaces).

Unless Chris Tieman has updated the plans and instructions, it is a huge
step to build one. Van's airplanes have the best plans and instructions,
but still require a fair amount of skills.

Two pieces of advice:

1. Get with your local EAA Chapter and develop friendships. You will
meet people who have solved a lot of the problems and puzzles that you
will encounter.

2. NEVER countersink .032 aluminum in hopes of a good structure. ALWAYS
dimple anything up to .040 for AN-3 rivets.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

You listed a lot of good options that I elided - just to make it harder:

A couple years back, I ordered the preview plans for Vans RV-9A for $55.
They are still that price (RV-3 is $45.) As far as I know, the only
difference between Van's Aircraft preview plans and the final set is that
the preview plan drawings are reduced in size by half (I think) - but they
are all there and quite readable. Also, you get the complete build
instructions plus other material. It's a fabulous deal education-wise even
if you design or build something else.

I've got copies of many of those you've mentioned.

The absolute gold starndard for learning are the Pazmany PL-2A and
PL-4 plans. Extremely well designed details, very well organized, and
very clear. The acompanying manuals are worth buying even if you
build something else. The RV plans and the Sonex plans are very close
to that in quality. I would guess the Thorp plans are similar; he
made his living consulting for "REAL" airplane companies, so was
familar with standards of practice as they existed at the time.

The Ultracruiser plans are a step down from that in terms of clarity
and presentation, but are still quite nice.
The CX-4 plans, another step down, from an "Art History" standpoint,
but the details are very good. The CX-4 plans are also nice in that
they have a lot of details, like firewall forward stuff, that most
other plans leave as "an exercise for the builder". But the sheets
are not well organized, it's hard to figure out the "next higher
assembly", etc.

The Teenie plans are a total joke. I have not heard good things about
Zenith plans; most of their planes are built from kits, with the
tricky bits, the ones hardest to document, already done.

"Oliver Arend" wrote in message
...
I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for.

Then you might want to narrow down your list just a bit towards what you
might actually want to build / fly - there is a world of difference from
one end of your list to the other.

FWIW I thought the T-18 plans were good - it was designed to be built from
sheet stock - not a kit with a bunch of pre-built parts supplied.

Many start. Few finish.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Oliver Arend wrote:
I'm looking into educating myself about metal aircraft construction by
getting a set of plans for a low-wing airplane. The idea is then to
either design my own plane (no, looking at the plans is not the full
education, there's also a master's degree in aerospace engineering,
I'm more looking for detail solutions so I won't have to come up with
everything by myself) or just build the one I got the plans for. My
choice is metal since I'm more confident with this (my skills)+
(material) combination than with others. Wading through the Kitplanes
directories I have a couple of candidates:

Hummel Bird, UltraCruiser
Mustang Aero Midget, Mustang II
Sonex
Zodiac CH 601, 650, XL
DCS Mini Coupe, Teenie Two
Thorp T-18
Emile Lucas L5, L6, L8, L11/12
Pazmany PL-1, PL-2, PL-4
Thatcher CX-4
(oh yeah, then there is also the Ryan ST-R replica, but that's
probably too much to ask for right now)

Judging from my very limited experience, the Sonex plans seem to be
very detailed and complete, but also steep in price ($600 according to
Kitplanes). Zodiacs, T-18s, and Pazmany designs seem to be very
popular, so the plans can't be all that bad? On the lower end, there
are the Hummel, Mustang and DCS, but they get very little coverage,
apart from the occasional mention of the Hummel Bird or the Teenie Two
by VW aficionados (I do like the Mini Coupe, though). Just looking at
the price, the plans can't be as detailed as others. CX-4, L5, L6 etc.
I've never heard of.

So my question is, who has experience with these plans(-built
aircraft) and can recommend a set?

Oliver
Try the Sonerai from Great Plains AC. Plans are /were $125.00
and $13K to $15K finished!
Rocky
Sonerai SII LTS

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

NEVER countersink .032 aluminum in hopes of a good structure. ALWAYS
dimple anything up to .040 for AN-3 rivets.


:-)

I could almost see the dollar bills floating by, as I read that!

Brian W

In article ,
brian whatcott wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

NEVER countersink .032 aluminum in hopes of a good structure. ALWAYS
dimple anything up to .040 for AN-3 rivets.


:-)

I could almost see the dollar bills floating by, as I read that!

Brian W

Yes. Although the depth of AN3-426 rivet heads is exactly 0.032 in., it
leaves zero errors in countersinking. Also, it will not take the shear
stresses that a dimpled skin will take.

A friend of mine bought an RV-4 a number of years ago. As he liked to
put it, "There were only four things wrong with it: Structure, Controls,
Systems and Electrical."

One of the problems was that the original builder had countersunk,
rather than dimpled, all of the rivets in the fuel tanks.

Result: lots of leaks. I ended up shepherding him through building a
pair of brand-new wet cell tanks.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.