How did the Brits do it?

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 3/10/04 3:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes


snip

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the
mission
ok.

I used Gee III once, in a Javelin. Trouble was by the time I'd lined up
the pips and plotted onto a chart we were 60 miles further on...

450 knots does that.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


We didn't do it that way. when the pips came together it was bombs away and
g'bye Fritz.

..



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "Emmanuel Gustin"
Date: 3/10/04 4:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Interesting. Do you know where the German Gee transmitters were located?
Were
there also three of them?

AFAIK they simply tuned their equipment to the British GEE
transmitters! The basic Gee (unlike Gee-H) was not a transponder
system, so they only needed the receiver to measure the phase
shifts, and then Gee worked for the Luftwaffe as well as the RAF.

The Allies did something similar with a German (naval) navigation
system, which turned out to be so efficient that it survived the war
a long time. Unlike Gee -- Wattson-Watt made an effort to have
Gee adopted by airlines, but the American airlines were having
none of it; it was too expensive and complicated to operate.

--
Emmanuel Gustin
Emmanuel.Gustin -rem@ve- skynet dot be
Flying Guns Page: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/




We didn't fly Gee until well after D-Day. I remember that we used three
transmitters. As I remember it there was one in southern France, another in
Denmark, Don't remember where the third one was. Do you know?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee.

Art that Intel Weinie was playing with you - the Germans knew enough about GEE
that by 1944, they had already lost more than one Luftwaffe aircraft that was
confirmed to carry a GEE reciever! One of the few times in WWII that both
sides were using a piece of the same electronic gear, for the same purpose.
They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well.

v/r
Gordon

We didn't fly Gee until well after D-Day. I remember that we used three
transmitters. As I remember it there was one in southern France, another
in
Denmark, Don't remember where the third one was. Do you know?

There were at least two in the UK and right on the heels of the invasion, if I
remember rightly, the Allies brought one ashore.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...

snip

The Allies did something similar with a German (naval) navigation
system, which turned out to be so efficient that it survived the war
a long time.

First ever LORAN station.

It covered the Bay of Biscay and was heavily utilised by
RAF Coastal Command. They kept that site running for something like
30 years after the war. It was doubtless of more use to the Brits than
the Germans. IIRC, it was *intended* for use by U-Boats but it probably
contributed to the loss of more than it helped.

The Germans had functional radio nav aids that covered the British Isles
from the outset. Knickebein and (later) X-Gerat and Y-Gerat had to be
discovered and jamming methods worked out.
All the above is covered in great detail in "Most Secret War" by R.V.
Jones, WW2
head of scientific intelligence in Britain..

The CO

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I think back to the war and the RAF heavies on their night missions.
Missions
flown in the winter usually were in atrocioius weather where there was no
view
of the gound and the sky above was overcast. There was no way to shoot at
star
fix or take a dirft reading from the ground. Working dead reckoning from
England deep into Germany and any change in wind dorection or velocity
that
went undetected made dead reckoning navigation a hit and miss
proposition.
Often it was not just miss, it was gross miss. Knowing all this how could
the
RAF ever hope to pull off these winter night missions successfully? What
was
the logic that made them keep flying under these hopeless navigation
conditions? Anyone know?

The "logic" was simple. The Brits strategy was to drop bombs at night
regardless of whether or not the intended target was in sight Some targets
were missed entirely, but the bombs could cause terror instead, which was in
itself an objective.

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 3/10/04 4:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee.

Art that Intel Weinie was playing with you - the Germans knew enough about
GEE
that by 1944, they had already lost more than one Luftwaffe aircraft that was
confirmed to carry a GEE reciever! One of the few times in WWII that both
sides were using a piece of the same electronic gear, for the same purpose.
They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well.

v/r
Gordon


The moment I saw all that grass jamming my screen I figured as much.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 10 Mar 2004 14:01:30 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

I think back to the war and the RAF heavies on their night missions. Missions
flown in the winter usually were in atrocioius weather where there was no view
of the gound and the sky above was overcast. There was no way to shoot at star
fix or take a dirft reading from the ground. Working dead reckoning from
England deep into Germany and any change in wind dorection or velocity that
went undetected made dead reckoning navigation a hit and miss proposition.
Often it was not just miss, it was gross miss. Knowing all this how could the
RAF ever hope to pull off these winter night missions successfully? What was
the logic that made them keep flying under these hopeless navigation
conditions? Anyone know?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

One way used was radio direction finding nad measuing the angles on
the source of german propraganda broadcasts...

Lord Haw Haw was apparantly used a fair bit as he was begining his
nightly braodcasts to reach the british public on dark winter nights
as the bombers were crossing the channel

ironic isn't it... the germans providing their own targettign for the
brits

In message , Glenfiddich
writes
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:15:31 +0100, "Emmanuel Gustin"
wrote:

...
AFAIK they simply tuned their equipment to the British GEE
transmitters! The basic Gee (unlike Gee-H) was not a transponder
system, so they only needed the receiver to measure the phase
shifts, and then Gee worked for the Luftwaffe as well as the RAF.

The Allies did something similar with a German (naval) navigation
system, which turned out to be so efficient that it survived the war
a long time. Unlike Gee -- Wattson-Watt made an effort to have
Gee adopted by airlines, but the American airlines were having
none of it; it was too expensive and complicated to operate.

Are you refering to the Decca Navigator system?
I thought that was a development of GEE.

He's referring to 'Sonne', a neat system which needed only an ordinary
receiver and a stop-watch. It was a 'counting dots' system. It was later
developed as 'Consol', a neat pun.
The last transmitter was at Stavanger in Norway and went off the air in
about 1955 IIRC.
The system only gave a position line but with about 1 or 2 degrees
accuracy.

It may not have been adopted by US airlines, but was commecially used
in the UK - and by the RAF.
And their later moving map display was very simple to fly.

DN was also very popular with fishing vessels,
as it let them *accurately return to a favourite spot.

A demonstration I saw in a film allowed a fishing boat to return to
harbour and actually pass between the moles without the helmsman seeing
out of the wheelhouse.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In message , rnf2
writes

snip

One way used was radio direction finding nad measuing the angles on
the source of german propraganda broadcasts...

Lord Haw Haw was apparantly used a fair bit as he was begining his
nightly braodcasts to reach the british public on dark winter nights
as the bombers were crossing the channel

ironic isn't it... the germans providing their own targettign for the
brits

The Germans shut down their B/C transmitters in groups as the bomber
stream passed over. This allowed the high power transmitter Aspidestra
at Crowborough (800 kW) to butt in on their frequency and play dance
tunes and relay false news programmes. Sefton Delmer 'Black Propaganda'.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell