Some bad controllers

Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
....so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

.... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.


On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
handle the landline.

Newps wrote in message news:mNQ2c.499756$I06.5381546@attbi_s01...

If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
handle the landline.

If he has another body to haul in there.

This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).

I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
(I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.

OK, so I took it to heart, don't assume the controller isn't busy
just because you don't hear non-stop chatter.

Now it seems y'all are saying to the contrary. If we don't hear
y'all talking non-stop, you aren't busy. Roger.

Another day, another viewpoint.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).

I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
(I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.


Odd, I don't recall anything like that.

Snowbird wrote:
Newps wrote in message news:mNQ2c.499756$I06.5381546@attbi_s01...


If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
handle the landline.


If he has another body to haul in there.

This is kind of funny to me. I remember some time ago I posted
about an incident where a Big Iron captain got P/O'ed at a not-
busy controller for not pointing me out as traffic (I was VFR
with flight following and couldn't have hit him with a JATO assist).

I seem to recall that several ATCS on the groups including SPM and
(I think) you, jumped all over me pointing out that just because I
didn't hear the controller talking a lot on that freq., doesn't mean
he isn't busy, he could be doing a lot of coordination so forth so on.

OK, so I took it to heart, don't assume the controller isn't busy
just because you don't hear non-stop chatter.

Now it seems y'all are saying to the contrary. If we don't hear
y'all talking non-stop, you aren't busy. Roger.

Another day, another viewpoint.

Cheers,
Sydney

You don't have to recall, you can use Google!

Matt

there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center, phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff:

I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.

Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
more item in the log book.

Michael



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was
taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any
second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,
phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into
their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a
big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do
things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then
you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into
DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller
asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the
weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that
time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway.
Boy thats a mistake I wont make again.

when I fly into phoenix VFR / flight following, ABQ has told me (and others)
that phoenix will not accept the handoff's from them and I can try calling
phoenix myself for class B transition.

I flew out of casa grande one night last summer IFR, the guy changed my
clearence 5 times in about 10 minutes, the last time he damn near wanted me to
fly to yuma before turning toawards blyth VOR. after getting handed off to
center, I asked for direct to boulder city and got it. As we were flying along
for about 45 minutes my wife saw the city lights off the right side, she goes
"is that still phoenix?"
I said yup... she then said, are they going to let us go home tonight ?

I am going to chalk this up as a learning experience and make sure it does not
happen again by getting anything I need from ABQ, but it still does not sit well
with me that the controller gave me a traffic alert in IMC.

Michael 182 wrote:

Jeff:

I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.

Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
more item in the log book.

Michael

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was
taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any
second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,
phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into
their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a
big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do
things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then
you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into
DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller
asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the
weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff wrote:

it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that
time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway.
Boy thats a mistake I wont make again.

You've answered your own question, sort of. On a composite flight plan the system
is designed for you to go to the IFR portion with center or FSS. Approach control
can take a pop-up easier than trying to activate a composite IFR flight plan.

I think you're being way too hard on the controller in view of your attempt to push
the system. Had you been on an en route IFR clearance with ABQ Center you would not
have placed yourself into never-never land.