New Butterfly Vario

Sure the rule was created way back, so ?
IFF the start cylinder top is set above cloudbase,
what do you think happens ?
Hope that makes sense !

On Feb 13, 5:22*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:

Here's the catch though: *You'd still be illegal to fly because you
use LK8000 or XCSoar. *Since they have AH functions that you cannot
"safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them.

Nav devices without gyros probably are never going to constitute
instruments that "permit flight without reference to ground". GPS
plus ipaq or similar probably okay no matter what software. I don't
speak for the RC, but I think this is a pretty defensible position.
I'm planning on using XCSoar in comps in April & May.


-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:01:01 -0800, Mike wrote:

On Feb 13, 3:22Â*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Brad -

Here's the catch though: Â*You'd still be illegal to fly because you use
LK8000 or XCSoar. Â*Since they have AH functions that you cannot
"safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them. Â*Sorry! No
contest-flying for you! Â*Not until you buy a dedicated flight computer
for a couple-thousand-dollars! Â*Oh, and if you buy a nice cell-phone,
you cannot fly with it. Â*Sorry, gotta hike to a farmer's house in the
middle of nowhere to make a call and get retrieved!

How do these things improve safety or help increase participation? They
don't - THAT'S the insanity of this rule. Â*Its much, much larger than
the half-dozen idiots in the country who'd kill themselves trying to
cloud-fly simply because they have an AH in the cockpit.

The sport and its rule-makers _must_ adjust to modern realities or the
sport is going to continue to die. Â*In some ways they're doing great
things; but in others they're falling flat on their face. Â*Adjusting to
modern society _doesn't_ mean you have to support million-dollar
thermal-detectors; but it _does_ mean the application of common-
sense!! Â*Skew the rules towards the greater common good; _don't_ skew
the rules and everyone's equipment out of fear that a teeny fraction of
individuals will cheat.

Anyone willing to cheat to cloud-fly is also willing to be a big dick
at their next contest and protest everyone who flies with a smart-
phone. Â*I'd LOVE to see the fallout from *that* event!

--Noel

XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Same comment from me re LK8000.

From a cloud flying POV it does nothing that's not duplicated by a
compass.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 2/13/2012 4:51 PM, noel.wade wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:08 pm, Dave wrote:
I am just passing along observations.
Remember, the rule was created (at least) partly to reduce the temptation...
FWIW, Best Regards, Dave

Sorry, I realize I'm breaking my word about shutting up - but was that
rule created *before* the new start-cylinder rules that require you to
be below start cylinder height for 2 minutes prior to going through
the gate?

Because with the newer start-cylinder rules in place, a lot of these
concerns go away.

The rule against cloud-flying instruments has been in force for decades.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 13, 3:45*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:17*pm, T8 wrote:

Can anyone name a single pilot who has an accident, or even a bad
scare due to entering IMC in competition?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes, Evan, I had a bad scare in a contest environment (Elmira 2009
Sports Class Nationals) I found myself in heavy down pour (IMC). I am
talking about the kind of down pour that makes you stop on the highway
because you don't see anything. I was not able to see anything neither
ahead nor down for what seemed like eternity. In reality the IMC
lasted 20 seconds or maybe a bit more before I barely saw the ground.
For all that time I did not touch controls and that saved the day.
After I started seeing bits and pieces of the ground I turned away
from the cloud. If I had a gyro I would have executed 180 deg right
away and I would have avoided much of the stress.

Saying all that, it was my bad judgement that got me there, although I
could swear the cloud did not look bad up to the moment I got poured
on. I learned from that experience. I am still worried more about
people flying in clouds than me entering IMC again. I am thinking that
if someone is going to fly in clouds they better do it with the right
equipment rather than a cell phone gyro especially if I am under the
cloud they are flying in. I am slowly thinking that maybe allowing
gyros is not that bad of an idea. I can't make up my mind on which
side of this argument I am on.

Andrzej

I often have airplane pilot friends look into the cockpit of a glider
and demand to know, "Where is the artificial horizon?

I tell them, "we use the big one in the sky". If they look puzzled, I
say, "Well, it's blue up there and brown down here and there's this
line in between we call the horizon.....

Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...nderer.cpp#n35

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

On Feb 14, 2:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

I want to point out that the rule against artificial horizons et al is
not just a USA rule. From the FAI Sporting Code which governs most non-
US contests (and the upcoming WGC in Uvalde):
"No instruments permitting pilots to fly without visual reference
to the ground may be carried on board,
even if made unserviceable."

As Eric pointed out, this rule has been in force for decades and it
did not just appear at random. It was found over time that it was more
of a benefit to safety than a detriment. Make your own conclusion
about the willingness of competitors to cloud-fly.

QT

On 14 helmi, 09:08, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

GPS derived "artificial horizon" is not enough to keep your wings
level when IMC. GPS system is very good for checking your bearing when
flying straight and level, better than compass, but to control glider
in choppy IMC requires either gyro (T&B or horizon) or AHRS system. I
do cloudflying with my glider all the time, and believe me it's
something you don't wan't to try out without proper training and
instruments. It's a lot of fun, if sometimes a bit too exciting, BTW.

I'm actually one of those who will get Butterfly vario because of the
AH feature. I believe that cloud flying in contests was last tried at
Vrsac WGC in 1972. It was very bad idea then, as it's now. There was
two pilots who parachuted to safety after IMC collision.

I often have airplane pilot friends look into the cockpit of a glider
and demand to know, "Where is the artificial horizon?

I tell them, "we use the big one in the sky". If they look puzzled, I
say, "Well, it's blue up there and brown down here and there's this
line in between we call the horizon.....


LOL! A friend did a demo ride for a heavy iron driver. He asked "where's
the flight director?". The response was "behind my eyes".

Tony

On Feb 14, 12:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?