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GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 26th 18, 10:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Hirashima
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

GliderLink is not really a replacement for Flarm. GliderLink can make you aware of traffic that you might not have seen otherwise, but it cannot give you warnings that you are on a collision course. This is because GliderLink only broadcasts your location every 20 seconds, a limitation imposed by the goTenna Mesh (5 transmissions per minute). If you don't have Flarm then GliderLink is certainly better than nothing, but I will be using both, personally. It would be cool if I could display Flarm traffic in GliderLink. I'll have to look into whether that is technologically feasible.

Regarding the frequency goTenna Mesh uses, their FAQ says:

goTenna Mesh will transmit at 1 W on 902-928 MHz in the United States, and will vary throughout other countries. For example: goTenna Mesh will transmit at 0.5 W on 869.4-869.65 MHz in Europe and other CE countries, and the device will auto-tune itself to the appropriate frequency band and power output based on the location where it's being used.

In my research on 902-928 MHz in the US, I could not find any specific prohibition against using the frequency while airborne. I asked goTenna if the Mesh was legal to use in the air, and they said they didn't know one way or the other. I did find that the original goTenna uses a MURS frequency that is not legal to use in the air, but MURS is not used by the goTenna Mesh. As far as Europe or other countries go, I haven't yet done any research on the legality of using the goTenna Mesh in the air. Anyone know?

Speaking of, I apologize to users outside the US for not having maps available right now. I believe I have a solution at least for Europe and I plan to add it to the app. I'd like to get confirmation on the legality of airborne use of the goTenna Mesh in Europe first though.

Regarding battery life, GliderLink is pretty easy on the battery from what I've seen. Putting your phone in airplane mode certainly helps conserve battery. Since GliderLink doesn't depend on the cellular network, you can do this and still use the app. The goTenna Mesh has it's own battery which should easily last all day with GliderLink. I've never drained the goTenna battery below about 50% if I recall correctly.

Regarding XCSoar and TopHat integration, it should be possible. I haven't talked to any of their developers, but I think it would be great if they wanted to integrate it.

One thing to keep in mind is that the goTenna Mesh, and GliderLink by proxy, requires Android 4.3+ and Bluetooth LE (4.0). Older devices like the Dell Streak don't meet either of these requirements, unfortunately. If you're wondering what Android phone to run GliderLink on, the Samsung Galaxy S series from S6 on have pretty bright OLED displays that are reasonably readable in sunlight.
  #22  
Old April 26th 18, 11:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

(...)
Regarding XCSoar and TopHat integration, it should be possible. I haven't talked to any of their developers, but I think it would be great if they wanted to integrate it.


From what I could observe on the https://forum.xcsoar.org/index.php (BTW, it stopped working for me some time ago), their reply is usually like: 'Open a ticket' and 'You need it? Do it!'

Don't get discouraged, please. It would be terrific to have the 'targets' on XCSoar. We really don't need yet another display in the small glider cockpit...
  #23  
Old April 27th 18, 02:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

I have a question for pilots who have put off installing Flarm because 'it is too expensive'...

What is the 'go to excuse' for not installing Glider Link (assuming you already own an Android phone)?

WRT enhancements. I think a phone app should aim to do just one thing well. The first priority should be a port to IPhone. This will get more aircraft onto Glider Link, sooner rather than later.

  #24  
Old April 27th 18, 10:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

In Europe and it would appear in many parts of the US most cross country gliders are flying with Flarm.

To improve safety we want as many people as possible to use Flarm.

While this is cheaper and has longer range, I worry that it may discourage some from biting the bullet and getting Flarm. And personally I wouldn't want to carry an additional traffic display (I get Flarm contacts on a Butterfly display and an LX 9000).
  #25  
Old April 27th 18, 11:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

If you can (legally and for free) send data at any bandwith between ground station and glider, this is just amazing. I do not see problem with competing technologies, they just drive prices down and at some point everything will be integrated (like flarm and transponder targets on current generation collision avoidance systems).
  #26  
Old April 27th 18, 12:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 5:11:43 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
In Europe and it would appear in many parts of the US most cross country gliders are flying with Flarm.

To improve safety we want as many people as possible to use Flarm.

While this is cheaper and has longer range, I worry that it may discourage some from biting the bullet and getting Flarm. And personally I wouldn't want to carry an additional traffic display (I get Flarm contacts on a Butterfly display and an LX 9000).


Progress isn't going to stop to cover the emotional cost of spent money on old tech. Flarm will be done in by something app based soon enough. The last guy to buy a barograph didn't care for GPS scoring.
  #27  
Old April 27th 18, 01:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Agnew
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

Integrating this into XCSoar is the most viable and valuable way to get widespread adoption of this solution. I really like the goTenna mesh concept, but I thought the Skylines interface with XCSoar was supposed to do the same inflight buddy-watch function down the road via cellular data.

The mesh network concept is intriguing, but with unlimited data plans on our phones in South Florida, it would only be more advantageous than Skylines at low altitudes over remote areas.

Interesting possibilities, though. Imagine synced mesh network integration with Skylines to improve coverage.

Paul A.
  #28  
Old April 27th 18, 02:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:11:43 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
In Europe and it would appear in many parts of the US most cross country gliders are flying with Flarm.

To improve safety we want as many people as possible to use Flarm.

While this is cheaper and has longer range, I worry that it may discourage some from biting the bullet and getting Flarm. And personally I wouldn't want to carry an additional traffic display (I get Flarm contacts on a Butterfly display and an LX 9000).


Except the highest traffic density is often local training gliders near the glider field - and towplanes. Good luck getting Flarm into 2-33s and L-23s in the US! At our club field, with 8 club gliders, 13 private gliders, and 3 towplanes, only 4 of the private ships have Flarm. Some of the training gliders don't even have radios! And yes, we have had at least two glider/towplane incidents (no one hurt, fortunately) that could have been avoided with this kind of technology. So to me, this could be an absolute no brainer.
  #29  
Old April 27th 18, 03:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 12:25:16 PM UTC-5, Renny wrote:
On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 11:04:21 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
I have Flarm and I still would use this - because in the US only racers have Flarm. I see this a the perfect solution for a club environment.

Please make an iOS version.

And look at the possibility of an NMEA output so the glider data could be sent to other soaring map displays via Bluetooth - Oudie, LXnnnn, Clearnav, etc.

Perhaps some other smart guy could come up with a way to deconflict duplicate tracks (FLARM vs ADSB vs GliderLink. Possibly by callsign?

Kirk
66


"because in the US only racers have Flarm"

For clarification, at Moriarty we have over 20 owners with PowerFlarms and only 1 or 2 actually race in regionals or nationals. Now, we almost all "do" fly the OLC....and we all would rather not run into each other or run into other traffic... ;-)


Ok, fair point - I'll amend my comment to "because in the US only XC and racers have Flarm". Sure, some school/commercial operators may have them (Williams?) but the great unwashed are struggling to get radios and audio varios in their trainers, much less Flarm!

PS - I've had a PF in my LS6 since day one - before that I had a PCAS, and if I could carry an APG-82v1 AESA radar with an APX-119 Interrogator I would have one of those, too! I REALLY like knowing what is around me!

Kirk
66
  #30  
Old April 27th 18, 07:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alan Saunders
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Default GliderLink - New team soaring app for airborne location sharing

At 21:30 26 April 2018, Ben Hirashima wrote:

...
Regarding the frequency goTenna Mesh uses, their FAQ says:

goTenna Mesh will transmit at 1 W on 902-928 MHz in the United

States, and will vary throughout other countries. For example: goTenna
Mesh will transmit at 0.5 W on 869.4-869.65 MHz in Europe and other
CE countries, and the device will auto-tune itself to the appropriate
frequency band and power output based on the location where it's being
used.

In my research on 902-928 MHz in the US, I could not find any

specific prohibition against using the frequency while airborne. I asked
goTenna if the Mesh was legal to use in the air, and they said they didn't

know one way or the other. I did find that the original goTenna uses a
MURS frequency that is not legal to use in the air, but MURS is not used
by the goTenna Mesh.

As far as Europe or other countries go, I haven't yet done any

research on the legality of using the goTenna Mesh in the air. Anyone
know?

...

See IR2030/1/19 for EU or 2014/88/UK June 2014 for UK. Other
countries may have different regulations.

- IR2030/1/19 2014/88/UK June 2014 -
Non-specific short-range devices.

** Equipment may be used airborne.**

869.40 - 869.65 MHz 500 mW e.r.p.

Techniques to access spectrum and mitigate interference that provide at
least equivalent performance to the techniques described in harmonised
standards adopted under Directive 2014/53/EU must be used. This can
include for example Listen Before Talk. Alternatively a duty cycle limit of

10% may be used.
EN 300 220 2013/752/EU Band No.54b.
...

Don't you love bureaucratic language! "Let's make sure the 'plebs'
don't understand and then fine them thousands of £/$ for infraction"!

The GoTenna limit of five messages per minute probably equates to the
maximum 10% duty-cycle for the protocol that they have chosen.
FLARM at ~868 Mhz limit their transmission to a very short data burst
at 10mW once per second - much less than required but adequate for
the their purpose.

The GoTenna (sounds like Lady Tena:-) map -
https://www.imeshyou.com/ indicates a good cluster in UK but sparse
population in Europe. I assume these ground stations (mostly mobile
and not 24/7) in non-gliding areas [cities] and not always active) could
relay signals between gliders and other traffic?

All five of my small, UK club gliders and most of our 20+ private gliders
have basic FLARM (£700, no ADS-B). Whilst your app may be more cost
effective than FLARM it requires an Android 'phone and has no collision
avoidance algorithm. I expect little take-up in Europe except for glider
pilots who already have a GoTenna and an Android 'phone.

OTOH, a network of GoTenna ground stations could provide better
coverage than OGN.

Good luck with your excellent project!

Alan (UK)



 




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