Are "Popups" A Hassle?

For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

skym wrote:
: For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
: if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
: often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
: wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
: popup.

... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR and
departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan mid-stream? Picking
up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for departure 3 hours earlier is not
likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.


-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR
and departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan
mid-stream? Picking up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for
departure
3 hours earlier is not likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.


Do you mean filing IFR from an untowered field and calling for clearance
shortly after departure? That usually works quite well as it is actually
easier for the controller.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
: ... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR
: and departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan
: mid-stream? Picking up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for
: departure
: 3 hours earlier is not likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.
:

: Do you mean filing IFR from an untowered field and calling for clearance
: shortly after departure? That usually works quite well as it is actually
: easier for the controller.

I'm primarily used to untowered fields, so the clearance delivery and void
time et al can be kinda a pain. It was the "shortly after departure" that I was
thinking about. Basically, planning to make the trip VFR, but filing an IFR plan in
case the weather's worse than you expected. If you're 2 hours down the road VFR
without having opened your IFR flight plan and you try to open it then and get a
clearance, it's probably been flushed from the system and is as bad as a pop-up.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

I'm primarily used to untowered fields, so the clearance delivery and void
time et al can be kinda a pain. It was the "shortly after departure" that
I was
thinking about. Basically, planning to make the trip VFR, but filing an
IFR plan in
case the weather's worse than you expected. If you're 2 hours down the
road VFR
without having opened your IFR flight plan and you try to open it then and
get a
clearance, it's probably been flushed from the system and is as bad as a
pop-up.


Even if it's still in the system the controller working the airspace two
hours down the road from your filed departure point isn't going to have the
flight plan. And you shouldn't expect him to.

: Even if it's still in the system the controller working the airspace two
: hours down the road from your filed departure point isn't going to have the
: flight plan. And you shouldn't expect him to.


That's what I was saying. Although it is pretty sad that the nationwide
system cannot keep everything together in a unified way. It's not that it's that much
data... just that the system is so old that it cannot handle it. If a couple
megabytes of memory in a GPS can handle every APT, VOR, ADF, INT for all of north
america, regular computers shouldn't have trouble.

Anyway... I'm not really bitching... honest... Just that many of the
procedures are due to limitations in the infrastructure AIUI.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Shouldn't he have some way of getting it though? (well, E.g. 30
minutes down the road rather than 2 hours) ?

Here's my specific example. I file IFR flight plan from Temple TPL to
San Antonio SAT. I take off VFR and head toward SAT. I'm in Gray
approach control's airspace when I take off, but 20 minutes later I'm
no longer in Gray's airspace. I decide I'd like to get my IFR
clearance so I call Houston Center. Should ZHU have a strip on me?
And if not, can they somehow pull it up, to give me a clearance using
that flight plan info?

I *think* the answers to those last two are no and no. But it seems
strange because it's all ZHU airspace, some of which is delegated to
Gray.

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
: ... and a corollary: If one does *NOT* do a popup, but rather files IFR
: and departs VFR, how much of a hassle is it to open said flight plan
: mid-stream? Picking up a flight plan filed with a different FSS for
: departure
: 3 hours earlier is not likely to work and will degenerate into a popup.
:

: Do you mean filing IFR from an untowered field and calling for clearance
: shortly after departure? That usually works quite well as it is actually
: easier for the controller.

I'm primarily used to untowered fields, so the clearance delivery and void
time et al can be kinda a pain. It was the "shortly after departure" that I was
thinking about. Basically, planning to make the trip VFR, but filing an IFR plan in
case the weather's worse than you expected. If you're 2 hours down the road VFR
without having opened your IFR flight plan and you try to open it then and get a
clearance, it's probably been flushed from the system and is as bad as a pop-up.

I've filed two stage IFR. Coming out of OSH to Newberry (ERY). Then
two hours later activating (picking up the clearance) the separate
plan from ERY to 3BS. No void times and other than the clearance it's
just like activating a VFR flight plan. Of course it probably works a
lot better out here in the sparsely populated areas in the middle of
the night.

I just called Minneapolis Center and said "This is November eight
thirty three Romeo IFR out of ERY for 3BS. There as a pause followed
by "stand by" followed by, Eight thirty three Romeo, climb to and
maintain seven thousand, cleared as filed which was direct. Other than
a call about every 10 minutes (I think to keep me awake) I didn't hear
anything until they passed me off to MBS approach which was just
before entering Cleveland center's airspace. MBS was "Descend to and
maintain 3000 at pilots discretion. Would you like to cancel now of
when on the ground?" (they wanted to go home) I said I'd be on the
ground in 5 minutes if they didn't mind staying with me. I called on
the RCO/GCO and they still got to leave on time.



Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

-Cory

"skym" wrote in message
ups.com...

For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.


Depends on how busy the controller is and how far you need to go. If
there's not much going on it's a simple matter for the controller to issue a
clearance and enter it in the computer. If he's talking to a lot of planes
at the time he may not have an opportunity to enter it in the computer. If
it's not entered it's he can't let you go beyond his airspace.

skym wrote:
For the ATC guys: I frequently have departed VFR, but then do a popup
if needed. Frequently these are sortof foreseeable possibilities, but
often enough I have been able to proceed VFR all the way. I've often
wondered just how much of a hassle it is to ATC to have to deal with a
popup.

I think it VERY much depends on the facility. I've talked with
controllers from several different facilities, asking a question
basically "if I want to descend through the clouds to land, would you
rather I go to FSS first, or just call you for a pop-up?" Invariably,
out here in the middle of the CONUS, the answer has been "just give us
a call - it's no more work for a pop-up than it is getting the
clearance strip through the computer."

Only once have I had a controller ask me to file with FSS first, and
that (strangely enough) was coming into El Paso, TX.