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#1
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new instrument PTS
Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant
changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? |
#3
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Well, that would have been improper for the examiner to do that, since
it was not called for on the PTS, and the examiner is bound by the PTS just as much as the applicant is. What I am asking about is the PTS effective 10/1. There are some changes and I am not sure exactly what the wording means. On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:59:21 -0500, Wizard of Draws wrote: On 11/13/04 8:58 PM, in article , " wrote: Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? I took my checkride back in August and my examiner covered the GPS with a Post-It during partial panel so I couldn't use the map or the compass portion. |
#4
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wrote in message ... Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#5
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Thanks that's pretty much the way I understood it. I missed the part about turning off the GPS during partial panel. I'll have to go back and read it again. On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#6
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I went back and re-read the PTS. I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn off the moving map. It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel testing, as near as I can see. Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there? On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#7
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Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D,
objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI, TASK A)." If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant "Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify intersections with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the aircraft to be equipted with two NAV radios. The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with the examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different examiners have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it isn't well clarified in the PTS. Hope that Helps, Brad Z. wrote in message ... I went back and re-read the PTS. I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn off the moving map. It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel testing, as near as I can see. Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there? On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#8
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A GPS is not, I don't believe, a "primary flight instrument". It is a navigational instrument. The examiner can have all the philosophies he wants, but he is, in the final analysis, bound by the PTS. He isn't there to create his own personal practical test standards. In fact this wording is in the PTS: "Adherence to the provisions of the regulations and the practical test standards is mandatory for evaluation of instrument pilot applicants." Therefore, an applicant would have grounds to challenge the results of a test if he were failed for nonperformance of a task not conducted in accordance with the PTS. If one of my students were failed for a task not conducted according to the PTS, I would be knocking at the door of the local FSDO the same day, and I wager I would prevail. As far as I know, the test is supposed to be conducted with any instrumentation installed in the aircraft, except for the partial panel task, which specifies loss of "primary flight instruments", which are defined as the attitude indicator and dg, or "electronic flight instruments". ( the electronic equivalent, presumably. ) Everything else shoule be available to the applicant, as far as I know. If there is an examiner lurking with contrary information, I would love to know the source which says that the examiner if free to fail instruments at his pleasure, not in accordance with the PTS. On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0500, "Brad Zeigler" wrote: Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D, objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI, TASK A)." If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant "Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify intersections with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the aircraft to be equipted with two NAV radios. The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with the examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different examiners have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it isn't well clarified in the PTS. Hope that Helps, Brad Z. wrote in message .. . I went back and re-read the PTS. I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn off the moving map. It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel testing, as near as I can see. Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there? On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#9
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Why don't you be proactive and call the FSDO now with your question? I'm
sure an inspector can answer your question and cite justification pro or con. That way if your student busts a checkride due to a failed GPS, you can quote the inspector. Otherwise, you can sort through the documents on the following link and get your answer: http://av-info.faa.gov/default.asp?PG=Designee wrote in message ... A GPS is not, I don't believe, a "primary flight instrument". It is a navigational instrument. The examiner can have all the philosophies he wants, but he is, in the final analysis, bound by the PTS. He isn't there to create his own personal practical test standards. In fact this wording is in the PTS: "Adherence to the provisions of the regulations and the practical test standards is mandatory for evaluation of instrument pilot applicants." Therefore, an applicant would have grounds to challenge the results of a test if he were failed for nonperformance of a task not conducted in accordance with the PTS. If one of my students were failed for a task not conducted according to the PTS, I would be knocking at the door of the local FSDO the same day, and I wager I would prevail. As far as I know, the test is supposed to be conducted with any instrumentation installed in the aircraft, except for the partial panel task, which specifies loss of "primary flight instruments", which are defined as the attitude indicator and dg, or "electronic flight instruments". ( the electronic equivalent, presumably. ) Everything else shoule be available to the applicant, as far as I know. If there is an examiner lurking with contrary information, I would love to know the source which says that the examiner if free to fail instruments at his pleasure, not in accordance with the PTS. On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:43:50 -0500, "Brad Zeigler" wrote: Under PTS section VII Area of Operation: Emergency Operation Task D, objective #3 states that the applicant: "Demonstrates a nonprecision instrument approach withoutthe use of the primary flight instrument using the objectives of the nonprecision approach TASK (AREA OF OPERATION VI, TASK A)." If you read Area of Operation VI, Task A, it states that the applicant "Selects, tunes, identifies, and confirms the operationals tatus of navigation equipment to be used for the approach procedure." Sure the examiner could fail a nav/com. If the aircraft has two radios, the applicant should be prepared to fly the approach and identify intersections with a single radio, unless the approach specifically requires the aircraft to be equipted with two NAV radios. The reality is that this is a discussion you should have with the local examiner. Presuming you are a CFII, you should have a relationship with the examiner that allows you to confirm these situations. Different examiners have different philiosphies on such manners, and as we established, it isn't well clarified in the PTS. Hope that Helps, Brad Z. wrote in message .. . I went back and re-read the PTS. I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn off the moving map. It says that one approach must be foown without the primary electronic flight instruments if they are installed. The GPS is a navigation system, not a flight instrument. Therefore I don't see where an examiner gets to turn it off any more than he gets to turn a VOR radio of during a partial panel approach. It is not a part of partial panel testing, as near as I can see. Any agreement/disagreement with this from any examiners out there? On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:33:04 -0800, "C J Campbell" wrote: wrote in message .. . Is there an examiner on board that can summarize the significant changes in the new PTS? For example, is the GPS required to be turned off during one of the approaches? No. However, the examiner may turn it off as part of a partial panel approach. One approach must be flown with glass cockpit displays or moving map displays turned off, if possible, but that does not necessarily mean that the GPS must be turned off. If the aircraft is equipped with GPS, one approach must be a GPS approach. If the aircraft has an autopilot, at least one approach must be flown with the autopilot coupled. I know one examiner who expects candidates to use the GPS and autopilot on every approach unless the examiner has specifically told them not to. |
#10
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I don't see anything that says the examiner must (or even can) turn
off the moving map. I agree. The moving map is not a flight instrument. |
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