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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
Hi Gang
I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion. |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang * I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300 Flarm units? Derek C |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote: Hi Gang * I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300 Flarm units? Derek C FLARM is short range, therefor not useful for Glider to commercial traffic |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On Oct 11, 7:47*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote: On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote: Hi Gang * I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300 Flarm units? Derek C FLARM is short range, therefor not useful for Glider to commercial traffic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - About 5 km range, so enough to take avoiding action. I note from the article that the B737 claimed to be at 5500 ft AMSL at the time the near miss took place and the gliders were allowed to fly transponder free up to 5000 ft in the area, so it probably wasn't as close as the article claimed. Derek C |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54 am, wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion. I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident report. 1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D) and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65 and surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or 1700AGL/FL100) 2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial (heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück ridge) and many XC flights go along there. 3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. Also the situatuion of approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed. 4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this. Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion contact with FIS will normally suffice. 5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E! 6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected" airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh those glider pilots behave totally legal. 7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be passed on the the approaching traffic. In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the rule "see and be seen" is to obey. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On 10/11/2010 11:44 AM, Derek C wrote:
You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300 Flarm units? Where do you get $300 FLARM units? But, that's not the problem, really - the airliner requires certified equipment. It would be much quicker, easier, more effective, and cheaper (for the airline company) to talk the airline companies into putting those $2500 transponders into gliders flying in that area. $100,000 - problem solved in one month. The transponders could be leased to the pilots - it's not necessary for it to be a gift. Could you afford $200/year to have a transponder in your glider? -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote: Hi Gang * I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300 Flarm units? Derek C Just maybe Dave is an experience pilot who flies in an area where there is high density of glider, airline and fast jet traffic and he is experienced enough across gliders and power aircraft to know how the ATC system works and how much traffic is out there where he flies. He flies and lives in are area were we have had an actual glider-fast jet mid-air collisions (I was flying there that day) and close calls with airliners. In addition to encouraging transponder adoption the local glider community, lead by PASCO, has also worked with the local ATC operation on both awareness and developing radio and operational procedures to help keep gliders separated from airliners and fast jet traffic. If glider pilots choose to fly near areas of high-density airline and fast-jet traffic without a transponder and the decision would only affect their safety then I'd have no problem in anybody doing whatever they want. But introducing the dynamics of airliners full of passengers being exposed to mid-air risk and I have a real problem with people choosing to fly in those areas without transponders -- and especially about glider pilots complaining about the cost of transponders. Presumably there are other places people can fly with less destiny. And I'm not convinced that "its not a mandatory transponder zone" excludes pilots from the need to equip with transponders. (switching to the USA...) In the USA we have key areas of glider activity that do not require transponders but just call out for transponder usage in gliders, and we seem to have significant variance across those locations with attitudes to and carriage of transponders. If pilots take the attitude that they don't want to adopt transponders in those areas then the best outcome I can see is for the FAA to require mandatory local use. I'd much rather see that than a nation wide removal of the transponder exemption for gliders. The Flarm suggestion and if made to airlines or government regulatory agencies would just show up the glider community as clueless. Any suggestion to stick something like FLARM in a transport category cockpit is laughable. Unlike TCAS II Flarm does not provide resolution advisories. The TCAS II (ACAS II on your side of the pond) systems need to provide a single situation view/command to the pilot. You can't have FLARM triggering a warning and TCAS or the ground controllers not being aware of it or situations where a crew decides to manoeuvre because of a threat the ground controller cannot see of Flarm. Even if fully integrated all the Flarm threat could likely do is prompt the crew where to look, not much help if descending through clouds with gliders hiding underneath etc. Only TCAS II allows/ requires a pilot to ignore a controllers direction -- no regulator is going to be willing to allow an uncertified flarm box in a threat aircraft issuing correct data and having an airliner TCAS+Flarm system issue an RA. Integrating Flarm with TCAS would cost millions and would suck a small company like Flarm dry and kill the innovation they have. The practical answer is simply to install a transponder -- it is the only technology compatible with TCAS and ground based SSR systems. And in Europe many of the Mode S transponders available now give you a path to 1090ES data-out. Not something you may ever want but maybe a nice option in future, and it means the boxes have a long useful life ahead of them. Darryl |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
On Oct 11, 12:22*pm, Peter Scholz
wrote: Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote: Hi Gang * *I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54 am, *wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion. I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident report. 1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D) and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65 and *surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or 1700AGL/FL100) 2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial (heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück ridge) and many XC flights go along there. 3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. *Also the situatuion of approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed. 4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this. Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion contact with FIS will normally suffice. 5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E! 6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected" airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh those glider pilots behave totally legal. 7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be passed on the the approaching traffic. In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the *rule "see and be seen" is to obey. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE Of all the very well laid out points above (including the critical point of working with the local ATC organizations) I would have hoped to see a point about about glider pilots being "strongly advised" to adopt transponders. Unfortunately "see and avoid" alone as a traffic separation mechanism between gliders and fast-jets/airliners ultimately comes down to wishful thinking. Eventually the idea that see and avoid alone is going to prevent a collision between airliners/fast jets and gliders is going to just fail. And putting aside the little point of moral responsibility to the airline passengers, what does the glider community think is going to happen to soaring in their country/region when an airliner does collide with a non-transponder equipped glider? And this should not be a surprise to any of us. Gliders are just exceedingly hard to see and airliner cockpits are very busy places. The two just do not mix well. Darryl |
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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt
Am 11.10.2010 22:55, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:22 pm, Peter wrote: Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote: Hi Gang I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports. Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen. Dave On Oct 11, 9:54 am, wrote: Lessons to be learned? http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2 Join the discussion. I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident report. 1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D) and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65 and surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or 1700AGL/FL100) 2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial (heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück ridge) and many XC flights go along there. 3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. Also the situatuion of approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed. 4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this. Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion contact with FIS will normally suffice. 5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E! 6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected" airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh those glider pilots behave totally legal. 7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be passed on the the approaching traffic. In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the rule "see and be seen" is to obey. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE Of all the very well laid out points above (including the critical point of working with the local ATC organizations) I would have hoped to see a point about about glider pilots being "strongly advised" to adopt transponders. Unfortunately "see and avoid" alone as a traffic separation mechanism between gliders and fast-jets/airliners ultimately comes down to wishful thinking. Eventually the idea that see and avoid alone is going to prevent a collision between airliners/fast jets and gliders is going to just fail. And putting aside the little point of moral responsibility to the airline passengers, what does the glider community think is going to happen to soaring in their country/region when an airliner does collide with a non-transponder equipped glider? And this should not be a surprise to any of us. Gliders are just exceedingly hard to see and airliner cockpits are very busy places. The two just do not mix well. Darryl Darryl, in Germany, for many years because of the pure separation of commercial traffic and gliders by the different airspace they use, there was no need for transponders in gliders. In the last years, this has changed a bit, as more and more airports are beeing used by commercial carriers that serve the German market on top of the traditional "state airline" Lufthansa, and more and more restricted airspaces appear on the maps. You see more transponders in gliders now, and there are talks about making them mandatory. In fact, the Netherlands have tried to do this, but have after a few weeks asked the glider pilots to switch them off again near some major airports, because ATC just had a black cloud on there radar screens... But ambitioned XC pilots have more possibilities with transponders, because it is possible to get clearances for airspace that otherwise would not be usable by a glider, so if you have the money and the ambition, you'll get a transponder sooner or later. I think it will take some more years to make it common for XC flights,, but we try to avoid to make it mandatory, as it would make the traditional glider instruction in clubs a lot more expensive, many clubs wouldnT survive this. It's not only € 2000 for the transpionder itself, you have to get it installed and certified for each glider. This would exceed the value of many gliders used in training nowadays. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE |
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