More proof the FemiNazi's are taking over Washinton

Robert M. Gary wrote
You're saying more qualified first officers (you said co-pilot, not
sure what that term means but I'm guessing you meant "first officer")

I am reposting a discussion from a year or two ago.

Manuel W. wrote:
On airliners, you often hear that the F/O actually acts as PIC
(I suppose this is for training purposes). Just a quick (and
maybe stupid) question: where does this "F/O acting as PIC"
pilot sit in the cockpit? In the left seat, because he's acting
as PIC, or still in the right seat, because he's a F/O? Maybe
modern cockpits are symmetric, so it wouldn't make any
difference where you are seated...

Dave S wrote
What you are describing is "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Not Flying"
when it comes to who is doing what. The PIC is still the PIC,
the F/O is still the F/O. They are both required to be there,
but one flies the plane, the other does all the other stuff (or
however their employer has designated that CRM/resource
management will occur). PIC sits on the left (generally) and F/O
sits on the right (generally). They dont swap seats for
different legs.

Bob Moore wrote:

You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. Pilots
not knowing who or what they are. :-)

At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my
"Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or
spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot
in operating an aircraft". Actually, in the case of more than one
pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co"
simply means together.

Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor) who insisted that
somebody (preferably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the
whole operation. Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. If
the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air
Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). This left
"SECOND-IN-COMMAND" for the other pilot.

Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC
and SIC share context. The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the
terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot.

Then aircarriers (probably my old carrier PanAm) started flying large
flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the
same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting
ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and
title was born. Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were
given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from
shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking
officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". The
Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same
as a ship's Engineering Officer.

When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as
Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer
Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of
"SECOND OFFICER". In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it
was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth
Officer.

What purpose did "rank and title" serve? First....rank served to
specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position
within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of
showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers.
After all...in proper society, we are all entitled :-) to the title
Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. One does
not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when referring to
himself. Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the
rank and title of "CAPTAIN". At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs
and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of
the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an
aircarrier environment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not
bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating
Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check.

So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people
up front in an airplane. Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First
Officer. These word pairs should be used in the same context. I am
constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX
and my copilot was....... It seems that once a pilot is told that he
is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a
pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot.

Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as
intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name.
At least at PanAm, the Flight Attendants got it right in their pre-
takeoff announcements, "Commanding FltXXX today is Captain Xxx Xxxx",
and then Captain Xxx Xxxxx would blow it with his PA announcement by
starting with "Good morning, this is your captain speaking."
Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in
whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to
describe positions rather than rank and title. My own company, PanAm
did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who
prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of
the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to
be referred to as a "lowly" pilot. How about all those ads in
aviation magazines that offer "Airline First Officer Training"?
Don't they really mean co-pilot training? Notice that the more
professional of the schools do not use this terminology.

How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of
your local doctors? I don't. I get mine from a physician.... more
specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). I honor his
education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor".
Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? Actually, a
merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". A
U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of
"Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank.

Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or write TV shows. :-)

Bob Moore

Bob Moore wrote in
22:

How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of
your local doctors? I don't. I get mine from a physician.... more
specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). I honor his
education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor".
Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? Actually, a
merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". A
U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of
"Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank.

Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or write TV shows. :-)

Bob Moore

I don't think it's uncommon for people in general to do the same thing,
even in other industries / title relationships, and even in the industries
that you mentioned...


"The Captain goes down with the ship."

"4 out of 5 Doctors recommend the purple pill over the blue pill."

"Hey Mister! Where are you going?"

"Excuse me Sir, can you tell me how to get to Sesame Street?"

"My complements to the Chef!"

"Here comes the Judge!"

It's not uncommon, apparently, to refer to someone by their title, even
without their name. I can't offhand think of any title that doesn't have
it happen to them, but then I'm not spending a whole lot of time on this
one.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:
First officer and co-pilot are interchangable terms.


Really, can you find any professional references to the term
"co-pilot"? The only place I've heard the term "co-pilot" is in places
like USA Today. I've never heard the term used by anyone in the airline
or aviation industry before.

-Robert

Well, you have now. My ratings include DC-9, B-727, B-767/757, L-1011.
27 years with a major carrier.

The fact you would pick such a nit doesn't speak well for you.