"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"

On Jun 15, 4:58?pm, Walt wrote:
On Jun 15, 2:55?am, BlackBeard wrote:





On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical
flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground.

And this is different from any other aircraft how?

Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway,

As in any troop carrying helicopter...

but

since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the
target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG
fire at low altitude.

Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to
replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than
those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is
flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170
knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG.

The escorts (still some form of a Cobra) can't operate where the V-22
operates.

It can't be efficiently escorted. It's the worst boondoggle ever
invented.

Walt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why is there any need to post all the inherent dangers of the V-22
when common sense tells us that transitional flight in a combat zone
is just begging to be shot down. That would not be so bad if it were
just pilots but each V-22 will have 24 troops. THAT is a disaster and
even the insurgents are waiting to shoot the first one down- you know,
they read the newspapers too and know it is coming! First one downed
will be a great propaganda victory and the thought of 24 mangled
bodies being dragged through some dirt road in Iraq is appalling.

You say that the German convetiplane Fa-269 and Weserflug P.1003 tilt-
rotor would not have worked for the Germans in WW2 in combat, so why
do you now think that the V-22 is any different? Technology doesn't
mean **** in a vunerable transitional flight machine. The Iraqi
insurgents will sit on the rooftops with AKs, AKMs, and RPGs to blast
the rotorcraft as soon as it slows to hover while in transition for
landing.

Higher up, it is a target for missiles and it cannot autorotate safely
if at all.

US troops are ****ed and the number 22 seems more unlucky than 13. We
have the highly dangerous V-22 and moneypit useless F/A-22 which will
never replace all the a/c it was intended to. 20 years from now the US
will still be fighting with a/c from the 70s-80s or older like the
B-52.

But then again theri will always eb flag-waving morons who will
believe in myths like:

- the Glock 17 is invisible to airport X-ray machines- its all plastic
and undetectable (it has a metal barrel, magazine, and other parts and
its silhouette is still totally visble to X-ray machines)
- the F-117 is invisible and will never be shot down (it was never
invisible and was shot down)
- the Apache is the world's premiere attach helo able to withstand any
firepower the Soviets/Russians can throw at it on the battlefield (I
guess they failed to test it with AKs and RPGs)
- the M-1 tank is the best in the world and is invincible (that's why
20 have been lost in ODS and OIF, with 2 taking missile shots up the
ass)
- when the Stryker arrives, it will kick ass (it was shot to **** and
removed to more secure locations)
- no one can touch the US, we are the lone Superpower (September 11,
2001)

- ad infinitum, ad nauseum

Rob
-

Dan wrote:
Vince wrote:
Dan wrote:
Pat Flannery wrote:


Vince wrote:

The handling of the V 22 would be even marginal except that it is
massively overpowered and overweight for the cargo load it can carry

they use brute horsepower to overcome the inefficiency of the tilt
rotor

it lifts about half the load a ch 53 with 12000 hp lifts

Could be worse...could be this:
http://www.vstol.org/wheel/VSTOLWheel/KamovKa-22.htm
That didn't look right, and it didn't fly right either.

Pat

Interesting layout. I assume the rotors would be used in
autorotation during horizontal flight. If this were done full time it
wouldn't be able to take off vertically, but would make one big
autogyro.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

the v-22 cannot safely auto rotate

snip

Vince, once yet again you are way off mark. I was responding to
Flannery's link to a Soviet aircraft not V-22.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

the thread is about the osprey

feel free to rename your thread

Vince

Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment
the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble
getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs,
ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out
(66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by
side or do they have to depart single file?

Peter Skelton wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:27:40 -0400, Vince
wrote:

SNIP

"The V-22 cabin comes with many constraints, Burkett explained in a
presentation to an industry conference. Not only is the space limited,
but whatever cargo is loaded in the aircraft must leave enough room for
at least three passengers and for crews to enter and exit unencumbered.
Without any cargo, the Osprey can hold 24 passengers.

The Marines specified that the EFSS — including the mortar, the prime
mover, a load of ammunition and a small crew — must be able to travel
110 nautical miles in the V-22. The weight of any vehicle to be flown on
a V-22 cannot exceed 2,450 pounds per axle. By comparison, a Humvee
weighs 4,500 pounds in the front axle and 6,500 pounds in the rear axle"

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...reys_Cargo.htm


That's the most heavily armoured version of the hummer. The base
version is 5200 lb GVW with a 2500 lb payload. Of course it's 86"
wide, so it won't fit anyway.


But even 5200 lbs 50-50 split is 2600 lb per axle empty.. That's over
the magic 2450 lb mark..

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:09:30 +1200, Kerryn Offord
wrote:

Peter Skelton wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:27:40 -0400, Vince
wrote:

SNIP

"The V-22 cabin comes with many constraints, Burkett explained in a
presentation to an industry conference. Not only is the space limited,
but whatever cargo is loaded in the aircraft must leave enough room for
at least three passengers and for crews to enter and exit unencumbered.
Without any cargo, the Osprey can hold 24 passengers.

The Marines specified that the EFSS — including the mortar, the prime
mover, a load of ammunition and a small crew — must be able to travel
110 nautical miles in the V-22. The weight of any vehicle to be flown on
a V-22 cannot exceed 2,450 pounds per axle. By comparison, a Humvee
weighs 4,500 pounds in the front axle and 6,500 pounds in the rear axle"

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...reys_Cargo.htm


That's the most heavily armoured version of the hummer. The base
version is 5200 lb GVW with a 2500 lb payload. Of course it's 86"
wide, so it won't fit anyway.


But even 5200 lbs 50-50 split is 2600 lb per axle empty.. That's over
the magic 2450 lb mark..

When it's forced through the door, enough bits fall off for it to
make weight.


Peter Skelton

Kerryn Offord wrote:
Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment
the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble
getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs,
ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out
(66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by
side or do they have to depart single file?


a Marine I talked to said that in combat gear with helmets on it's a
sort of alternating single file crouch walk from the seat to the door.
its tighter than single file but you have to avoid getting entangled.

Vince

On Jun 16, 8:10 am, Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.

The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.

The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment
the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble
getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs,
ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out
(66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by
side or do they have to depart single file?

a Marine I talked to said that in combat gear with helmets on it's a
sort of alternating single file crouch walk from the seat to the door.
its tighter than single file but you have to avoid getting entangled.

Vince

The bad guys don't even have to use automatic fire, maybe we could get
the Marines to go back and forth like those bears at the carnival.

Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Vince wrote:

they have noticed that
What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.

This differs from any other rotary wing craft how?

very very high disk loading with yaw effects


6. HIGH DOWNWASH VELOCITY

Because of the high disk-loading of V-22, the downwash velocity is
about twice that of any conventional helicopter, and because of the
side-by-side placement of the prop-rotors there are two distinct
downwash wakes that are transverse to the flight direction. This has
several operational implications that bear on safety issues. The most
critical one, I believe, is the effects of downwash on landings at
night in a desert environment – a challenge in any helicopter, but
more difficult, and potentially dangerous, in the V-22.

http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm

In something like the Chinook, the twin rotor down wash causes the and
dust to rise along the center of the fuselage sides, not over the
cockpit area.

Pat

Dan wrote:

Interesting layout. I assume the rotors would be used in
autorotation during horizontal flight. If this were done full time it
wouldn't be able to take off vertically, but would make one big autogyro.

That was the idea, if forward flight lift would shared between the
windmilling rotors and the wings but the prototype crashed, and they
gave up on it.
We tried the same concept in a lot smaller form on the McDonnell XV-1:
https://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aer...donnel_xv1.htm
The one I keep trying to find a photo of on the web is the Yak VVP-6
design for a huge helicopter using six rotors (three mounted one behind
the other on three stub wings on each side of the fuselage), and carried
a six missile SA-2 battery on its back along with the associated radars,
and more reload missiles inside its fuselage. This monster was to be
powered by no less than a total of 24 turboshaft engines, pylon mounted
in two dual pods on each of its six stub wings.
The giant helicopter was designed to work in conjunction with S/VTOL
fighters and attack aircraft by letting a mobile missile site to be
deployed to front line positions quickly.
After the work on the Yak S/VTOL aircraft ceased, it was canceled before
any prototype had been built.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:



Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Vince wrote:

they have noticed that
What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.

This differs from any other rotary wing craft how?

very very high disk loading with yaw effects


6. HIGH DOWNWASH VELOCITY

Because of the high disk-loading of V-22, the downwash velocity is
about twice that of any conventional helicopter, and because of the
side-by-side placement of the prop-rotors there are two distinct
downwash wakes that are transverse to the flight direction. This has
several operational implications that bear on safety issues. The most
critical one, I believe, is the effects of downwash on landings at
night in a desert environment – a challenge in any helicopter, but
more difficult, and potentially dangerous, in the V-22.

http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm

In something like the Chinook, the twin rotor down wash causes the and
dust to rise along the center of the fuselage sides, not over the
cockpit area.

'Taint so, Pat - The CH-47, and pretty much all tandem-rotor helicopters
since the H-21, have overlapping rotors. Downwash over the center of the
fuselage is very high, due to the 2 sets of rotor wash adding to reach
other.
What you get with a 'Hook hovering over dust, sand, or water is an
incredible amount of crud blown around for quite some distance - there's a
good image here at:
http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazi...ASCARtech.html


--
Pete Stickney
Without data, all you have is an opinion